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Jon Swanson
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I have a brand new Compaq nc6120 that seemed to work fine out of the box, but after loading all of the software updates, now the fan runs all the time whether it is running on battery or not.
Needless to say, this leads to a short battery life ;-(
I contacted online tech support, and after going through several techs and installing:
SP30069 - BIOS Update F.03
SP29158 - System Enhancements for XP SP2
SP28712 - system default settings 4.10 Rev G
I still have the problem. Now they want me to send in the system (for 5-7 days+) for "thermal grease to reduce the processor heat". I asked them if this was a known problem, and they did not reply and closed the case.
Has anyone else seen this problem and solution?
Also - I checked the reported ACPI temperature of my processor using SpeedFan and it is 60 degrees C. According to Intel specs this is the limit for a regular P4 processor, but for the Pentium M the specs I found at Intel said the limit is 100 degrees C. I wonder if the software is set for a normal P4 and thinks the CPU is too hot when it isn't???
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Sort Answers By:
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Simon Poulton
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Apr 11, 2005 12:23:31 GMT
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Send it in and see what they come up with |
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Rainald
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Apr 11, 2005 21:26:11 GMT
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Jon,
I second Simon's suggestion to hand the machine back to HP.
Rainald |
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Andy Fisher
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Apr 12, 2005 15:07:25 GMT
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This is the first post regarding our new product line so it aroused some curiosity.
Checked the BIOS code and the first 2 trip points for fan speed is 45 and 55 degrees. So your fan is running at medium speed.
Seems to me it is warmer than it should be especially if not doing much. I ran SpeedFan on my 8200 and it cycled between 39 and 45 degrees.
check your power profile is set to Portable/Laptop so adaptive throttling is occuring.
Press ALT CTRL DELETE and bring up task manager. Click on the process thread and scroll up and down to see if any processes are running that are using up alot of CPU time.
You should know that our mechanical engineers are being more and more cautious about thermals these days and they give us very conservative trip points because once a system gets really hot it's very difficult to cool it down without shutting the system off to prevent damage. |
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Jon Swanson
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Apr 12, 2005 15:46:31 GMT
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Thanks - I'll check that out. I am traveling at the moment and left the nc6120 at home because of the temperature concerns, but I'll post the results here on Thursday. |
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Sean Pin, Ng
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Apr 13, 2005 13:45:42 GMT
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I got a brand new HP compaq NX6120. When I got it, I could not boot up at all. HP asked me to send for repairing and I did so.
They have changed the system board and sent it back to me.
When I got back the laptop, run it with battery and power cable, both managed to boot up the system.
However, this time the fan keeps on running and creates a lot of noise. Called the technical support, they asked me to update the system BIOS. After updating the BIOS, the fan is still running continuously even though I switch off the laptop for hours.
Any suggestion? They do not agree to replace a new one. |
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Jon Swanson
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Apr 13, 2005 20:28:19 GMT
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1) Checked the power options, it was set to Home/Office Desk, changed it to Portable/Laptop. No change.
2) Shut the system off for an hour
3) Booted it up, immediately ran only task manager and SpeedFan, system showed a constant cpu usage of 2-4%. The fan was off briefly, then turned on/off several times, then stayed on as follows. Here is the log from boot time:
Temp (C) Fan
41 On
40 Off
45 On
40 Off
47 On
40 Off
49 On
40 Off
51 On
50 Temp stayed at 50, fan on
The total time to get to the steady state 50 degrees C was about 5 minutes. The cpu usage was constant at 2-4%, no new programs were started.
I am still wondering if the bios settings are for a regular P4 that is supposed to have a max temperature of 60C, but this is a Pentium M system and that CPU has a 100C max temperature.
http://support.intel.com/support/processors/mobile/pm/sb/CS-007971.htm
I also wonder about the cooling design if it can get to 50C (122F) within a couple of minutes of starting up?? |
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Sean Pin, Ng
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Apr 14, 2005 02:27:58 GMT
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have you not decided to send it to HP for repairing?
Have you tell HP about this? What is their commend?
From the forum here, it seems that this model is having a lot of problems and unstable. |
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Andy Fisher
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Apr 14, 2005 11:50:58 GMT
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Sean, I have seen only two laptop issues for the 6120. Yours and Jon's. Your issue is completely different which I believe I have helped you out with. Please don't diss the platform with data from only 2 laptops out of the tens of thousands that have been sold. |
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Andy Fisher
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Apr 14, 2005 11:54:45 GMT
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Jon, the data that you show is normal behavior up until the 50 degrees. Also the cooling scheme is not derived based on the processor but upon the whole mechanical design. My 6120 person is unavailable this week so it is difficult to get a hold of one to see if I can reproduce this behevior. |
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Sean Pin, Ng
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Apr 14, 2005 13:58:44 GMT
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My apologies to Andy if I have mistaken that nc6000 to be the same series as nx6120/nc6120.
There is some discussion on the fan issues as well on the nc6000 series. |
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Jon Swanson
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Apr 14, 2005 14:06:16 GMT
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Andy,
1) SpeedFan displays three temperatures, temp1, temp2, temp3. Temp1 is apparently the cpu temp, the other two stay at 25-26C, so they are placed elsewhere in the system?
2) The ultimate job of the cooling system is to keep the processor temp within spec, so while it is not solely derived from the processor specs, how can a higher allowed processor temperature not affect the scheme?
3) Are there any known problems with this system where there was not enough "thermal grease" was applied during assembly, or other overheating/fan problems?
4) If I do start to run other applications on the system, the fan cycles frantically from fast to slow. This seems to indicate that the thermal rise is very fast (maybe too fast due to poor coupling somewhere?) and the hysteresis for this system seems to be one degree if that. |
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Andy Fisher
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Apr 14, 2005 14:15:47 GMT
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1. The other two temps that you see are phantom sensors report by ACPI to the OS. Don't know why we do this.
2. While the processor is certainly an important component we do make attempts to not melt other pieces of the system. Actually the core chipset runs hotter than the CPU I believe.
3. Yes, we have seen the occasional time during manufacturing where insufficient grease has been applied
4. Still looking for a unit to reproduce your issue. |
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Jon Swanson
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Apr 19, 2005 15:51:00 GMT
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Andy - any luck duplicating the problem or other advice?
Even after this laptop has been idling for 20 minutes with its screen off TEMP1 is at 48C and the fan is droning away. This is not acceptable performance.
Anyone else out there with an nc6120? |
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Cheng
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Apr 20, 2005 19:27:35 GMT
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Hello Jon,
I am having exactly the same symptoms you described with my brand new HP NX6110 Celeron M 350.
Though yours is Pentium-M based, I think we do have the same problem. At idle and with no CPU load (checked the task manager), the Temp1 as reported by Speedfan is 45C, and the fan is always on, whether it is on battery or on AC.
Updated to the latest bios with the latest drivers available on HP's website, computer profile set to Laptop etc., no change: the fan keep running at constant speed (no exact fan speed measure, am just listening at it).
I suspect the CPU temp sensor settings to be too much conservative, which Andy is suggesting when he writes :
> You should know that our mechanical
> engineers are being more and more
> cautious about thermals these days
> and they give us very conservative trip
> points because once a system gets really
> hot it's very difficult to cool it down
> without shutting the system off to prevent
> damage.
When passing my hand over the air vent, I'd say that the air pushed out by the fan is hot but "acceptable", by no means it is very hot nor extremely hot (you'll get the idea), I could leave my hand in front of it no problem.
I guess, the temp must be close to what Speedfan is reporting (though Speedfan is not working on my NX6110, except the temp report - empty Fans/Voltages/options tabs etc.).
With the fan always on, it surely does make a difference, not only about battery life, but also about the noise generated by the fan.
I need confirmation by other owners of the NX6110 before considering contacting HP for a replacement. |
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Jon Swanson
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Apr 20, 2005 20:56:53 GMT
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I agree Cheng, and the air coming out of the air vent on my nc6120 is cool or room temperature, not even noticeably warm. |
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Cheng
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Apr 21, 2005 09:14:03 GMT
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yes,
> cool or room temperature,
> not even noticeably warm
is exactly what I meant. The chassis also does not get hot, it is just slightly warm. I dismounted the keyboard (as I would do it for a memory module upgrade) to have access to the CPU/heatpipe system, I powered the machine on, the fan started immediately, then I used it for a coupe of ten minutes and I could leave my fingers on the heatpipe, the heatpipe does not get hot either, while the fan is still running.
It might be that applying thermal grease again will do it, since I do not have access to the CPU, I'll would let the HP Tech service do it.
Overall, I sincerely doubt it will suffice, since the temperature reported by Speedfan seems to be correct and is corresponding to what we have noticed previously.
Andy, any chance to reproduce this behaviour with both models NX6110 and NC6120 ? |
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Andy Fisher
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Apr 21, 2005 10:15:57 GMT
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Firstly the 6110 and 6120 are essentially the same except the 6110 is missing a few features. Don't ask me about nx vs nc, I think it's just a warranty thing.
I did in fact set up a 6120 and let it run idle. Bear in mind this is out of the box with absolutely no extra software installed.
Speedfan and an Intel Thermal utility both reported 40 degrees with the fan off, then the system would warm up to 45 degrees (first fan trip point) and the fan would turn on and the system would cool down to 40 degrees (fan turns off). Cycle times were around 10 minutes.
The Intel utility allows me to add a percentage load to the system. By adding a 60% load to the system the temperature almost immediately started climbing up to 60-70 degrees and the fan speeds increased correctly. Stopping the load the system temperature quickly reduced and returned to normal temperatures.
I believe this behavior to be normal.
Jon, in your first post you stated that your system ran at 60 degrees but in subsequent posts you stated 50 degrees. It's important to report accurate observations.
We should also review what software you have added subsequent to unpacking the system out of the box. I can't believe the system is of much use with the minimum amount of software supplied with the system unless your image came with MS Office. |
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Jon Swanson
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Apr 21, 2005 11:08:38 GMT
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Andy,
Those are accurate observations. The 60C readings were made after installing updates and doing some web browsing on the HP support site for a while.
The 50C readings are made shortly after booting the system after it was off for an extended period of time, and then specifically using as little CPU as possible, only running SpeedFan and Task Manager as I noted above.
1) Opened the box
2) Went through the HP/XP software setup
3) Installed all Microsoft updates from Windows Update
4) Noticed the fan was running all the time
5) Contacted support as noted above and installed recommended updates
6) Installed SpeedFan to check temperature
I have made minimal use of the system other than testing due to the unresolved temperature problems.
Today after leaving it on for 30 minutes with 0-2% cpu usage, running speedfan only, TEMP1 = 47C, TEMP2 = 30C, TEMP3 = 25C. Fan running constantly.
While I understand that you are trying to keep the heat levels low, your selected trip points are far too conservative for a CPU that is rated to 100C, and the rest of the system is staying cool. I am concerned that running the fan constantly will lead to premature fan failure, not to mention the noise and wasted energy. Why bother putting power efficient chips in the system and then waste power freaking out trying to cool it off if the temperature goes above 40C (104F)!! This is less than half the max rated 100C temperature as documented in the Intel technical note.
I purchased this nc6120 for use on my desk and on the road.
On the road I am concerned about battery life, and the fan running constantly reduces it considerably from the advertised time.
In my office I want performance and a quiet work environment - and this system is giving me anything but. The constant fan droning is very annoying - its louder than some of my full desktop systems! Of course I am not saying the fan should never come on, but let it come on when it really needs to cool the system off, not when it is barely above body temperature.
I am generally pleased with the physical design and the performance of the nc6120, but the constant noise and wasted power on the fan is not acceptable. |
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Mike Barton
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Apr 25, 2005 10:11:46 GMT
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I've had an nx6120, same machine, and same problem. Love the design but the fan issue is terrible. Tha machine is cool but the fan is going on when I open a tab in Firefox, or anything.
My machine was a similarly equipped Dell Latitude d600 and the machine would get warm to touch but the fan would only go in if I was running disk-intesive things or related - pushing the machine a bit with numerous apps.
When the machine is plugged in the fan runs constantly despite nothing other than systray apps, 1-4% CPU usage.(Have checked that the bios is not set to auto-run fan when plugged in)
Have upgraded the bios and others mentioned by Jon and, also, no change.
I think Jon is on to something with the bios being tuned for a p4.
This is obviously a fine-tuning needed for a new product that looks like a winner otherwise. |
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Andy Fisher
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Apr 25, 2005 10:52:53 GMT
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The real concern is skin temperature. We don't want the keyboard feeling hot.
That said there is buzz here that maybe the settings are a little conservative. We are going to re-evaluate the thermal policy.
Also, I'm going to test a bootleg BIOS to see the effect that a 50 degree trip point will have. It may have the same results as we have now but with the system running a little hotter. I'll keep you all updated. |
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Jon Swanson
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Apr 25, 2005 11:22:07 GMT
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Andy,
I understand some people not wanting the skin or keyboard to feel hot when running in portable mode, but there are a couple of issues here:
1) While I would rather have a cool laptop in my lap than a hot one (except in winter time ;-), I would rather have longer battery run time and a warmer laptop than a very cold laptop because it ran out of battery running the fan. Maybe make this a user settable preference? Shorter battery life, cool laptop or longer battery life, warm laptop.
2) When the laptop is used in a desktop environment, on a stand with an external keyboard and mouse, the skin temperature is of no concern, but the noise level can be much more of a concern.
BTW, I was not making much progress on this issue, and did not want to ship the system in for service (7+ days gone and no guarantee about the hard drive state when it gets back), so I signed up for an on-site service contract.
I just got off the phone with the support group (they sent me to a special group that tracks new systems), and after going over what has already been done they recommended on-site service to replace the fan and the heat sink and the system board. This service is scheduled for tomorrow.
Other than the chance of there being too little heat sink compound applied during assembly, I don't think this will help and I'm not very excited about breaking open my brand new system and being the technician's first nc6120 to service, but I don't seem to have any other options...
Thanks for looking into this further, and I am very interested in your BIOS investigations. Other than the fan problems making me crazy, the design and performance of the nc6120 are great!
Jon |
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Tamas Cseh
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Apr 25, 2005 11:41:02 GMT
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Dear Jon,
please tell us about the results of the on-site service.
I have the same problem and I also have an on-site guarantee but I did not want my notebook to be 'serviced'.
I wonder what will happen if the technician can solve the problem. All nc6xxx owners will send in their notebook for service? Or it is a situation like in the car industry and HP should announce an official call back for all these notebooks?
Anyway, I got an nc6000, and we have the same fan issue discussed in another topic on this site.
Best
Tamas |
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Rainald
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Apr 25, 2005 13:37:09 GMT
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Thanks for your in detail follow-up.
Scepticism ion my side is the same as on yours.
Pls keep us posted.
Rainald |
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coolsailor
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Apr 25, 2005 22:08:16 GMT
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Compaq nx9010
Pentium(R)4 CPU 2.66GHz
1 year old
nx9010 system has 3 fans and they all run flat out most of the time. I just reset it to MAX BATTERY and it did help a little but if I run any app at all it heats up and the fans go crazy. The fans are very noisy. I use it as a desktop most time and the noise is unbearable in my quiet office.
You are lucky if the fans are cycling.
It gets worse as the unit ages.
This appears to be a problem with many HP models. For a 2.66GHz mine seems very slow so I do not understand why it is heating up anyway, inefficient is all I can think of.
HP really have some serious research to do. |
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Andy Fisher
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Apr 26, 2005 09:13:02 GMT
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Jon, the results of the bootleg BIOS I told you about behaves pretty much the same except that it seems it is much easier to cool the system down from 50 to 45 degrees than 45 to 40 degrees. The fan still comes on but stays on for much less time.
We are re-evaluating our thermal trip points. |
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Jon Swanson
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Apr 26, 2005 09:19:13 GMT
N/A: Question Author
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Andy, based on this new information, should I go ahead with the attempted replacement of parts in my system today or try to cancel the service call for now until we have a chance to test further?
It really does not sound like I have a hardware problem, and I hate to break open a new system without a good reason. |
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Andy Fisher
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Apr 26, 2005 09:50:09 GMT
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The decision is really up to you, but based on the results you reported earlier I think it is normal behavior up until the point where you hit 50 degrees.
50 degrees is normal if Windows had to do something which forces the CPU to a higher speed but I haven't seen it stay there when the CPU returns to it's minimum speed when idle. |
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Jon Swanson
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Apr 26, 2005 10:11:01 GMT
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Ok, we will at least take a look at the amount of heat sink compound on the CPU and take it from there. I'll let you know what we find. |
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Mike Barton
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Apr 27, 2005 18:52:36 GMT
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Hi. Any word, Andy, on a BIOS setting rethink? I reckon my fan is coming on far too early with temps well under 50 regularly. |
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Jon Swanson
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Apr 28, 2005 09:00:03 GMT
N/A: Question Author
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Here is a photo of the off-center heatsink compound. There was probably enough, but we added a small amount to even it out and attempt to help the problem. |
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Mike Barton
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Apr 28, 2005 09:02:35 GMT
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I'd say such poor service is pretty common to all computer companies, which have turned to service plans to subsidise machines, which have become a commodity.
That's why I was not worried about buying the NX6120 in Australia, which comes with a very limited 1 year service.
My chat with a tech here about the fan ended with him telling me the fan should be on all the time because it was a high-end machine. Yikes.
A BIOS tweak seems in order here. Or some sort of settable tool that has warning/limits for upper limits.
The machine rocks, but the fan running constantly is nonsensical and annoying. It's either a heatflow design problem or a trigger that is not tuned correctly, I'd say at this point. |
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Jon Swanson
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Apr 28, 2005 09:09:06 GMT
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Here is a photo of the incorrect heatpipe/fan combo that was sent (top) and the one from the nc6120 (bottom). The very small screw is in the photo for size comparison.
I don't know what notebook the the top unit is from, but I wish it was in my nc6120! Now that looks like a cooling system.
The heatpipe from the nc6120 looks woefully undersized - no wonder its so hard to keep the CPU cool! It cycles so fast because there is almost no thermal mass there! |
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Jon Swanson
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Apr 28, 2005 09:38:23 GMT
N/A: Question Author
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And finally a photo of the heat sink and fan installed in the system.
[[[ The following information is provided for REFERENCE ONLY, I am NOT advising anyone to try to open or service their own system without the appropriate skills and training. If you choose to do so and probably void your warranty, its your own fault! ]]]
NOTE to any technicians who do not get training or even a one sentence description of how to work on this from HP ): Just about everything in the nc6120 can be serviced by only removing the keyboard. There are two screws marked for keyboard removal on the bottom of the system, and there are four small sliding clips on the top between the function keys.
Once the keyboard is off, the heatpipe, fan, and CPU can all be serviced easily without disassembling the rest of the case. The fan and heatpipe are separate (and very small!) units.
p.s. the main system board is not easy to remove (this is not too surprising) and I would not recommend having this done by field service!
I am very happy with the general design and performance of the nc6120. After seeing the insides of the nc6120 it is nicely put together. It was designed properly using all the same screws and with easy access to any parts needing normal service or upgrade.
However, the cooling system design and sizing in software AND hardware do not live up to the thoughtful design of the rest of the unit.
I would like to see HP do something soon to resolve this issue by improving the mass of the cooling system and the trip points in the BIOS. |
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Andy Fisher
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Apr 28, 2005 10:57:09 GMT
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We are investigating removing the initial trip point. I can't give you a timeline but we believe it is the right thing to do.
I am currently testing this and while the fan does still come on from time to time it is on for a very short time. <10 secs under normal use. |
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Jon Swanson
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Apr 28, 2005 11:13:19 GMT
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Thanks Andy.
What do you think about increasing the thickness of the plate on top of the CPU and the size of the heat pipe to give it better cooling? There seems to be enough room for this modification, and it might help to slow sudden temperature changes that occur with the CPU's load. |
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Cheng
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Apr 28, 2005 11:37:42 GMT
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> [...] improving the mass
> of the cooling system and the trip points
> in the BIOS [...]
you are right Jon, I fear there is no other way. As I suspected it, applying thermal grease eventually did not change the situation.
Thank you for posting pics of the system for us. I did open the NX6110 for a memory upgrade (from a single 256 MB to 2x512 MB) and the parts and layout are exactly the same as the NC6120.
Like other users here, I am looking forward to seeing HP to come out with both a better cooling system and a improved Bios, to make this series a winner one.
Without those improvements, I just cannot recommend this series for the company. |
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Jon Swanson
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Apr 28, 2005 16:04:46 GMT
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A couple of other ideas for you Andy - even at its lowest speed the fan is noisy in a quiet office environment.
1) Is there is a lower speed it can run at where it does not make detectable noise? That would be a good setting for the bios option that lets you leave the fan on all the time when plugged in. Not as much cooling of course, but it might work well in combination with the higher temperature settings you are working on.
2) Could a different fan or blade design be used that might make less noise? |
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Jon Swanson
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May 2, 2005 08:41:22 GMT
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Andy - any update on the BIOS or other changes? |
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Andy Fisher
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May 2, 2005 10:05:21 GMT
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Still here. Trying to get everyone in a room at the same time. |
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Mike Barton
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May 2, 2005 10:38:59 GMT
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Hi Andy. I'd like an update and fix soon too. Thanks. Mike |
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grayson
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May 2, 2005 11:09:12 GMT
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andy , I don't have this model but have found the thread very interesting .
if you had used this first trip point instead of 55C on my m700 the fan would run continuously .
what component is used in this newer machine which induced you to lower the trip point for protection ?
grayson |
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Cheng
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May 2, 2005 11:21:32 GMT
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Interesting question from grayson.
Am waiting for a Bios fix for the NX6110 too. Thanks. |
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kgatlin
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May 6, 2005 03:35:19 GMT
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I have to say I saw someone's response about not dissing the forum over only 2 laptops with this issue. Well, that irked me as I have a BRAND NEW NC6120, barely 2 days old and I already have this issue as well. This would appear to be much wider spread as this issue was immediately apparent to me. It was the first thing I noticed. My fan trips at around 44C and it wont go off. Very annoying. I barely have any apps running. I am using it to do store support (via VPN and PCAnywhere) for over 1500 PCs and 600 stores. That is about all the softwar I have installed.
I also have an issue with the ACPI drivers. As soon as the laptop sleeps, it wont come back up. I have to completely power it down to get the computer to come back up. That means that if I walk away from my work for too long, then whatever I was working on is now lost (if not saved). This issue was there from the first moment I powered up. I have downloaded all the Microsoft updates for XP Pro SP2 but the issue remains.
I have to say, between one really annoying bug and one really fatal one, I am not very impressed with this laptop. I really like the construction and feel of the laptop, but this could be a deal killer for me. I have yet to contact support - so they may yet rescue the situation and turn a lemon into lemonade. Since we are a major HP shop where I work, I will definitely be bending the HP rep's ear over these two issues. |
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Mike Barton
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May 6, 2005 09:12:47 GMT
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kgatlin... i too have apparently had acpi problems. if my nx6120 goes on standby the monitor's backlight will not go on and i have to restart. using hibernate instead, but would like a fix.
and what is the story with a fan fix? update please. am thinking of asking for a return or exchange for another machine, such as the dv4000.
anyone with fan or standby problems with it? |
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Robert
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May 6, 2005 10:24:10 GMT
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I also have the fan problem with my nx6110. I downloaded RightMark Clock Utility and pushed the speed of the Pentium-M down to 400 MHz. The effect is that it takes the CPU longer to reach the point at which the fan is starting (here 45C). It is no solution to the problem but it is useful while using the browser, Word or other applications not demanding much power. Hope there will be a solution soon because I actually do not want to give the notebook back. |
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Cheng
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May 6, 2005 13:31:58 GMT
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Robert,
Do you confirm that with the RightMark Clock Utility you can get the CPU clock down to 400 MHz ?
I though that on Intel's Pentium M CPU with Speedstep technology the minimum clock speed was 600 MHz. I might give a try to that software.
Anyway, we are still in need of a Bios fix. |
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Robert
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May 6, 2005 18:48:58 GMT
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Hi Cheng,
that's right. You can even push it further down but less than 400 MHz makes the machine very slow. I added a picture of the program window.
However, you mentionned a minimum clock speed for Pentium-M CPUs and I think that is the minimum concerning the automatic adjustment. My Pentium-M knows only two steps (800/1600 MHz).
Yes, hopefully there will be a BIOS fix. If the fan started at 50C and stopped at 45C instead of 45C/40C everything would be okay probably. |
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grayson
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May 7, 2005 04:05:39 GMT
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robert , hate to disagree with you , but have you considered ambient temperatures ?
there are large chunks of the world where 50C would be a normal running temperature with this machine from what people are reporting ;at 55C trip you may be able to fry an egg on the keyboard [ as someone once said ] , but at least you could do so in peace and quiet ;it becomes clear to me that it is only a spec from the marketing department that has brought about this problem
grayson
grayson |
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Wiktor
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May 10, 2005 17:33:19 GMT
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Hi, I just got my nx6110 laptop (with 1.4 Celeron M processor) a few days ago and I must say I am experiencing the exact same symptoms. From day one, right out of the box, the fan is continuously on: while at the same time the keyboard and air comming out of the vents are warm at best (seems room temperature most of the time).
Hopfully this can be resolved because otherwise the laptop is a solid machine and it's such a shame.
I'm glad I found these forums :) |
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Jon Swanson
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May 10, 2005 17:42:36 GMT
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Andy - its been another week - can we get a progress report?? |
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Andy Fisher
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May 10, 2005 19:28:08 GMT
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It's late here in Houston. I'll post tomorrow morning. Good job, Jon, contacting customer support, adds more weight to the issue and exposure to the problem. I've been contacted by third level support on this issue. |
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Rainald
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May 10, 2005 22:50:43 GMT
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Andy,
|| It's late here in Houston.
So my long-time assumption seems to be right:
You are a member of this fantsatic team of "good old COMPAQ"?
Rainald |
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Isabelle W
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May 11, 2005 05:19:37 GMT
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Andy,
I'we also contacted support for my nx6110, both here in Sweden, the very first day I had my computer, on support phone line, and by e-mail to USA (used the form here on HP-website) and both times I got more or less answers. 0In Sweden they said that they did not know how this machine should behave regarding the fan and offered me to send it in for check-up. From mail-support they told me to find another nx6110 to compare mine to...? I dont know if they want me to buy a couple of machines to compare to, or should I roame the sellers stores to listen around?
Anyway, hoping for a solution soon,
Isabelle |
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Rainald
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May 11, 2005 05:33:55 GMT
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Isabelle,
that's just natural.
It does take tiiiiiiiime for something detected in forum-discussions like this one to get through (if this happens at all, more often not) to the "bodies" in charge.
And it does take at least that long to have the information distributed worldwide <siiiigh>.
IMO the product managers should be obliged to to read through forums like this one at least twice a week. IMO a place like this one (even if being overcrowded with problems of true antiques) is great source of getting to now what does not work.
I for one would not buy any n<c>6xxxx. The problems are obvious.
Rainald |
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Isabelle W
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May 11, 2005 05:46:08 GMT
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Rainald,
I agree with you regarding forum discussions, and thats understandable. However, when support aswers that they do not know how a machine should behave, I wonder... I thought that when R&D puts a new line together they have decided on certain 'standards' for that product line, for example the behaviour of the fan.
But it would probably not be so good of support to say "ok, so we know about the fan-problem, but we can't do anything about it" So, therefore they dont say anything, instead.
Isabelle |
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Wiktor
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May 11, 2005 05:50:09 GMT
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This issue seems to be well documented already but I've done some testing and temperature monitoring with SpeedFan of my own. Here are the results:
(6110 w/ 1.4 Celeron M)
The laptop was hibernating overnight, when I turned it on today the fan was off for the first 15 seconds, then it turned on. If I boot up normally the fan turns on by the time I get to the log on screen, or start immediately if the laptop is not cold (as it would be after a whole night).
Then I quickly installed SpeedFan, the CPU temperature was a constant 45C with the fan on at low speed.
The temerature could not drop below 45C no matter what (leaving the system idle, lifting the laptop off the table). To me this looks like a hard coded 45C, or perhaps the CPU temperature probe is not working correctly.
Next I started doing some simple tasks, the temp remained at 45C. I run some graphics applications, trying different image filters which made the CPU usage average within 40-60%. The temperature did not change (still 45C).
Finally I applied a complex filter which caused the CPU to hit 100% and stay there for about 10 seconds. This resulted in an immediate spike on the temperature graph up to 55C and the fan switching to higher speed. This continued for the 10 seconds that it took to edit the image, then as soon as CPU usage droped - the temperature came down to 50C.
After that it stayed at this 50C and could not drop any lower.
So my obeservations are as follows:
-The first steady state CPU temp. is 45C, this is consistent with what Cheng reported here. At least this is true for Celeron M. This temperature will not drop any lower (even at idle).
-High CPU usage causes a sudden temperature spike on the graph: it hits 55C within a fraction of a second and the fan switches to higher RPM (the second speed).
-When CPU usage drops well below 100%, CPU temp. quickly comes down to 50C and this is the second steady state for the CPU. The fan is at the low setting.
-It will not cool down to 45C again. The temp. will stay at 50C (this is what Jon reported), and the fan will continue to spin at the low setting.
-Unless the following pattern occurs:
1. Sudden 100% CPU usage for a fraction of a second.
2. CPU temp. instantly raises to 55C.
3. Fan switches to higher speed.
4. CPU usage is no longer 100% (it was only for a very short period of time), but the fan continues to spin at the high setting for a second or two.
5. CPU temp. drops back to 45C, 49C or 50C and stays there, fan spining at low speed.
As I typed this my CPU temp has been reported as 50C all the time, CPU usage is minimum. The laptop chasis is cold. The fan is on.
Attached is a graph showing SpeedFan measurements and pasted CPU usage graph from Task Manager. You can clearly see the correlation between temp. and CPU load that I desctibed. Note that near the end the system is idling while the temp. is frozen at 50C.
I hope this helps! :) |
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grayson
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May 11, 2005 07:23:04 GMT
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Wiktor
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May 11, 2005 08:40:14 GMT
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MobileMeter gives much more accurate readings. I was beginning to think the temperature could only change in discrete steps of 5C, but now I can see that it does in fact change continuously.
The ACPI temperature values appear to be:
40 - 55 - 65 and then
80 - 100 - 102
Right now the actual CPU temp. is 47C with the lowest of 44C just after boot up.
40C is unreachable for sure.
55C triggers faster fan rotation. |
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Wiktor
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May 11, 2005 09:19:18 GMT
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I just realized that 47-49C is quite a lot, I remember my P4 desktop computer idled at 35C or something like that. Don't know what's a typical laptop temp. though.
I measured the temperature of air flowing out of the vent and it turned out to be 31.3C (in the room it is 21.4). Who knows maybe the reported CPU numbers are a little inflated? |
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Cheng
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May 11, 2005 10:34:32 GMT
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Wiktor,
what you described is correct.
In previous post, I have confirmed that with the NX6110 Celeron M 350, using SpeedFan, the temp is oscillating between 44-45 C when surfing with Firefox or even at idle, either on battery or on AC power (CPU usage at minimum). The temp never goes down below that level and the fan keeps running.
Furthermore, as we all observed it, the air flowing out of the vent is only slightly warm, the 31.3C you reported seems to be correct. But if you put your hand on the base of the chassis, you'll notice that at the CPU location, the external surface is hot, for sure it is closer to 44-45 C than the 31 C you measured.
Seeing this temp difference makes me wonder if the heatpipe is playing its role properly.
I believe there are two issues here, related to each other: the temp sensor being too conservative (managed by the Bios), and the embedded heatpipe not being fully efficient.
Fixing the Bios by letting the Bios start the fan at 50 C only (i.e. setting the upper limit to 50 C instead of the actual 45 C), though better than the actual setting, IMHO, would only be half of the job.
To be complete, and make this series a winner, I suggest HP to revise the heatpipe unit design. As Jon experienced it, applying again thermal grease on the CPU core did not change much if nothing at all.
Let us wait for a complete report by Andy. |
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grayson
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May 11, 2005 10:41:41 GMT
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much better utility I think !
first cut in on a m700 is 55 , and mine runs light laden at about 48-50 in an ambient of 15 , also when hibernating .
guess who shut down the central heating 2 days before the outside temperature dropped 12 degrees!
grayson |
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Cheng
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May 11, 2005 12:08:51 GMT
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Utility, why not ?
I would accept any solution provided that it is efficient and durable. |
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Andy Fisher
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May 11, 2005 12:55:14 GMT
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Wiktor pretty much nailed the problem regarding the CPU increase causes temperature spike.
We will never be able to prevent the fan coming on while you are busy working on your computer. What we want to do is to workaround the temperature spike when the CPU performance is boosted. We are experimenting with ways to do this. Hopefully this will prevent the constant on and off of the fan.
Our experiments are being done on an nc82xx unit mainly because that's what I've got. It's a bigger box and the fan can get the system to cool down to 40 degrees. I am concerned that some of you are reporting that on the 61xx units the fan can never get the temperature down to 40 degrees.
When we have a solution we'll make sure to test it out heavily on all the platforms, however that will be on a shipping image. Some of you may have loaded software that provides a load on the system in the background which may require more cooling.
Keep up the posting, all the info you provide is monitored and useful. |
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Cheng
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May 11, 2005 14:06:45 GMT
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Andy, thank you for following closely this thread and for your answers.
Here in France, the NX6110 / Celeron M 350 / 256 MB RAM / 40 GB HDD / no Wifi / Combo DVD-CDRW is sold at a extremely competitive street price : 599,00 Euros all taxes inclusive.
At that price, the configuration is pre-loaded with a version of FreeDos and thus does not come with Windows XP. Drivers for all Microsoft OSes have to be downloaded from the HP site, which I did.
I have installed XP Professional with SP2, loaded all the proper drivers and put on it no other software than the bare minimum at the beginning : Firefox and a few other softwares. There were no anti virus installed or CPU hog software running in the background whatsoever.
The temp and fan behaviour I have reported in my first posts is based on that configuration. Since then, I have installed some other softwares, but the situation remains, the Task Manager does not report any exceptionnal CPU usage while the temperature keeps staying around 45 C.
This is very unfortunate, because on the other hand, the NX6110 is a really pleasant machine, feels rock-solid (being part of the Professional line), and as I already put it, should HP provide a complete solution to the problem, this notebook would be a winner.
If you need more info or testing, I would be glad to help. |
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Isabelle W
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May 11, 2005 14:27:54 GMT
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Andy,
I'm sorry, but I don't understand what this means that you wrote "however that will be on a shipping image"
Could you or someone else "translate" so that I understand?
Thanks |
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Andy Fisher
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May 11, 2005 16:05:46 GMT
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Isabelle, that just means how the system is setup out of the box after you run the "Out of Box Experience". You know registration etc. |
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Andy Fisher
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May 11, 2005 16:14:25 GMT
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I finally figured out SpeedFan.
SpeedFan gets the current temperature from Windows.
Windows doesn't get told the current temperature until a trip point is passed. So if SpeedFan is reporting 45 degrees thats because the OS thinks it's 45 because the OS won't get told the new temperature until it hits 40 degrees.
We have a little utility that updates the OS with the correct temperature on a programmable basis so I can use SpeedFan to report the actual temperatures.
So I need to do a poll. What irritates you the most?
a) The fan turning on and off so frequently.
b) The fan running for long periods of time at a noisy level
c) I don't think I'd notice if the fan was run all the time, just at a lower quieter rate.
With (C) battery life is not really impacted at all, the fan uses very little power. |
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Wiktor
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May 11, 2005 17:05:20 GMT
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"I am concerned that some of you are reporting that on the 61xx units the fan can never get the temperature down to 40 degrees."
--Andy
This is exactly what happens with Celeron M equipped models and Pentium M models running in "always max performance" mode (as in permanent full frequency on AC power for example). And is the main source of all the complaints.
I've attached a graph from MobileMeter. (BTW I run SpeedFan and MobileMeter side by side and also noticed the unexplained differences in displayed temps now I understand what was going on).
Anyway when I turned on my laptop this time it was very cold and for the first time ever the fan was able to cool it to that 40.0 C (because apparently during boot up it went up to 45).
And as expected the fan went off. Then it took only ~20 sec. to get to 45 that's when the fan kicks in. It quickly droped the temp to just over 40.0 and from that point it's continuously on while the temp steadly rose to 45-47 and it's like that ever since then.
So 20 (heat up) seconds + 20 seconds (cool down) vs 10 minute cycle that was observed in your experiment, Andy. Well, at least for this model it seems like effectively permanent fan running is the only way to go. And in light of this the current settings are not unreasonable if a little conservative.
But my ultimate choice in the poll is actually A, B and C! In other words let me have that special BIOS of yours that allows you to costumize all those fan/temp options :)
But seriously, just one more question to you Andy. Do you have any offical info regarding the expected battery life of 6110 (or equivalent) model with the Celeron processor? Because the only figure I was able to find is 4.5 hr which is obviously for Pentium M. |
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Andy Fisher
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May 11, 2005 17:14:20 GMT
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I will try to find the battery life goals for Celeron units tomorrow.
If people are going to run the "Always On" profile which permanantly maxes out the CPU, there's not much I can do. In fact I believe in that case you will hit 2nd trip point currently set to 60 degrees.
Part of the purpose of adaptive speedstep is to help temperature, battery life etc. When power is not needed the CPU is stepped down and I personally would always recommend the Portable/Laptop profile.
Sorry! There's no magic BIOS that lets you alter the settings on the fly :) Just change the numbers and rebuild. |
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Clinton Tam
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May 11, 2005 17:50:34 GMT
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I don't believe Celeron CPU is supporting the Intel SpeedStep function.
Only Pentium Mobile or Pentium M is equipped with dual clock speeds to enable the CPU to go to lower clock speed when power is not needed.
Am I missing something in the latest Celeron CPU from Intel ? |
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Cheng
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May 11, 2005 18:17:08 GMT
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The latest Celeron M (with the Dothan core and 1 MB L2 cache) don't support the SpeedStep technology.
On my NX6110, the Celeron M 350, which belong to that family, is locked at 1300 clock. |
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Isabelle W
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May 12, 2005 00:56:32 GMT
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My answers to Andy:
a) The fan turning on and off so frequently.
*Extremely irritating
b) The fan running for long periods of time at a noisy level
*Extremely irritating
c) I don't think I'd notice if the fan was run all the time, just at a lower quieter rate.
*just irritating, but acceptable(?) if it's the best to hope for...
But if I understand you correctly, this will only be possible in new machines, and nothing can be made to fix our fan problems?
/I |
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grayson
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May 12, 2005 02:11:20 GMT
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andy , as an impartial observer , this looks to be a no brainer , unless you find reasons it won't work that is
celeron....first cut in at 55 , like your older models ; with no speed step it is always going to run at about 50 , even in a temperate climate , so in places like houston!!!!!you would then need to have a medium fan speed to get enough cooling , but people buy celeron for the price advantage, so would undoubtedly accept a slightly noisier and hotter machine
on the pentium a 50 first cut in with low speed would probably hit the mark ; taking your remark about fan consumption as correct [surely need qualifying as speed consumption cannot be linear], a low speed fan in the background is not obtrusive ,and this would cool only slowly and run without cutting in and out
there you are , something for everyone to disagree with ; can you tell that I was in marketing in one of my incarnations!
grayson |
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Mike Barton
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May 12, 2005 09:30:58 GMT
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Andy: This has devolved into a waste of time if we are being told we'll have to live with this fan issue.
There is a problem with this machine and HP needs to fix it.
The fan is coming on far too early and staying on too long. (For my nx6120 when I have the power cord disconnected it is OK, but the fan hyper-reacts still to every bit of action on the machine)
I don't want a poll... I want a fix for a problem. Either a hardware design problem, as it appears to me now with all the obfuscation, or a minimisation of that problem with a BIOS fix.
Get on with the fix or let's organise a mass mail-in of our machines to our moderator. |
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grayson
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May 12, 2005 10:10:13 GMT
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andy , saw an old western on the TV recently ; the sign on the piano in the bar said....please do not shoot the pianist , he is doing his best .
I'm with that
grayson |
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Jon Swanson
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May 12, 2005 10:15:27 GMT
N/A: Question Author
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Andy,
My answers to your questions are similar to Isabelle's:
a) The fan turning on and off so frequently.
***Extremely irritating***
b) The fan running for long periods of time at a noisy level
***Extremely irritating***
c) I don't think I'd notice if the fan was run all the time, just at a lower quieter rate.
***this may be acceptable if the "lower quieter rate" is inaudible or quieter than the hard drive and does not affect battery run time.
I wrote before (with photos) that I think the heat pipe and general cooling system for this series is way too small! Add low trip points because you are likely worried about its capacity and its no big surprise that it is noisy and unstable. What, if anything, have you considered doing about improving the physical cooling system within the available space?
If you do not come up with an acceptable solution soon, I will be returning my nc6120. I hate to do this because I like the design of the system otherwise, but the fan issues make it unusable for me. |
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Wiktor
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May 12, 2005 10:34:15 GMT
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First let's not overreact, it's very rare that a company has this kind of support forums in place, let alone respond to costumers. This thread had saved me some headaches and I hope it also helped the people over at HP.
I gave it more thought and I agree with grayson, his cooling scheme is a good place to start:
1st Trip Point: 55C Fan starts
50C Fan stops
2nd Trip Point: accordingly
To test how these settings will do on a Celeron M system, just disable Speed Step for the duration of the tests because Celerons don't have that.
I will let this issue rest now. |
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Cheng
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May 12, 2005 12:17:30 GMT
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My answers are also similar to Isabelle's.
But my personnal preference would go for NO fan at all when browsing or doing some basic Word editing tasks that do not require intense CPU usage.
I would prefer HP to raise the first trip point to 50 C or even better 55 C. I guess, other components (MB and embedded chips) must have been certified to accept that temp level and there is enough room inside the NX6110 for the overall heat to be dissipated.
Based on my experience with three other laptops :
- Toshiba Tecra A2 with Celeron M 340 (tested: fan starts around 65 C)
- IBM X31 with Pentium M 1.4 GHz Banias (tested: fan starts around 65 C too)
- Samsung X10 with Pentium M 1.4 GHz Banias
On the three laptops, the average temperature at idle or when browsing the Internet is around 45~50/53 C, depending on the ambiant temperature, no fan running at all, hence very pleasant to use. Compared to the HP, I can only conclude that the HP settings are far too conservative.
I can understand that HP may have its own motivation by setting the first trip point that low compared to other manufacturers, but I honestly think it is too low. Am I wrong when suggesting that a running temp of 50 C when idle or very light load should be normal and acceptable ?
As I already reported it, there seems to be a gap between the temp reported by the CPU sensor and what I could notice when touching the heatpipe. I believe that the heatpipe is not getting a maximum of heat being transmitted by the CPU.
Talking about the machine's internal design, I was also surprised to see that the GPU was not covered by the heatpipe (check the size and design of this heatpipe on the photos posted by Jon). This participates also in the overall heat generated. |
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Robert
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May 12, 2005 13:06:14 GMT
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a) To me the most annoying aspect of the problem is that the fan is running nearly all the time and only stopping for about 30 sec. Probably nobody wants the device to be quiet all the time but according to my experience that should be no problem to a notebook with mobile CPU while using office programs or the browser. At least, the fan of my previous notebook (Compaq P 900 =) was running nearly never.
b) The fan turning on and off is not that irritating to me. The fan of my nx6110 is running (nearly) all the time at the same speed.
c) The fan running all the time at a lower speed would be an advantage in any case but I don't think it's necessary.
@Cheng: As far as I know X10 users had similar trouble with their notebooks. The only difference is that it was caused by a BIOS update provided by Samsung :) |
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Rainald
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May 12, 2005 14:34:27 GMT
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Mike,
it's too sad that Andy feels offended.
Too bad.
Andy, who obviously is coming from the old COMPAQ, has been in this forum on his *own* and not as some company official.
He always has done his very best to help out in situations where his help was needed. And this always has been of greatest value.
Too bad that the way of bashing HP has driven hom out. I can understand this reaction.
Too bad a result, howver.
You will take care now?
Noone.
Rainald |
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Andy Fisher
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May 12, 2005 14:39:22 GMT
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Tantrum over. Thanks Rainald for your kind words. You're right, this is not part of my job description, more of a passion to ensure customer satisfaction. I monitor the boards to check for potential issues that might affect that customer satisfaction and work hard to escalate that information through our mobile division. |
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Rainald
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May 12, 2005 14:53:06 GMT
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Thank you so much, dear Andy, to come back!
I know how it feels if one does one's best and people still bashing the messenger (or the pianist as Grayson qouted [BTW: there was a great film by Truffaut with the title taken from this image]).
I'm really glad to see that someone cares to get the issue with the nc6xxx models (who IMO are seriously suffering) gets escalated to the needed level.
Thanks again
Rainald |
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Cheng
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May 12, 2005 16:29:10 GMT
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Isabelle W
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May 13, 2005 00:44:15 GMT
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I would also like to give my sincere appreciation to Andy (and others) for input and help in this matter.
Although Mikes (somewhat grumpy) posting (and the numbers of posting in this thread), shows that this issue is very of high priority to us.
Isabelle |
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Mike Barton
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May 13, 2005 07:56:33 GMT
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Andy and all. Am sorry for getting too razor-tongued.
But, Andy, you said you were looking into the issue and by face value you were representing the company.
I believe the critical mass of this forum is that you have a great computer with a little problem that needs fixing. I thought you were going to escalate the issue.
I don't want to spend time on the phone with tech support having to re-explain the issue to five people to have them tell me to send it in. I use it every day. It appears a mass problem that needs a software fix.
Please explain what we are to do now, and what you are doing. Thermal grease is not fixing it and I don't want to live with the fan on most of the time, or coming on from browsing flat html pages.
The trip points need to be set much higher, it would seem.
And, by pointing to the CNET review I made the decision that people should have the right to know that this issue has not been resolved.
I used to review laptops for a living. Buyers always take a risk with a new product line, but I took comfort in buying a business laptop from one of the biggest, and expect some follow-thru.
Can I ask what other people are going to do? |
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Andy Fisher
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May 13, 2005 08:40:52 GMT
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I wanted to let everyone know that a significant number of people consisting of h/w, f/w, mechanical, support personel and me are getting together in a room today to brainstorm this issue.
Personal observations, first fan trip point is too low, raising it doesn't help, you have the same problem but with a warmer system. We are working on a complex algorithm to reduce the fan on/off issue while still providing safe operating conditions for the system.
I know it's easy to ask you to be patient and to tell you we're working on it when you're me not you, but this is more complex than simply raising the trip points. |
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Cheng
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May 13, 2005 08:56:30 GMT
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FYI there is another thread here:
http://notebookforums.com/showthread.php?t=81416
linking to this HP forum thread.
Someone on that forum said :
> With the nc6000, Hp had problems with the
> fans -never- coming on (causing a few systems
> to burn -sticker on bottom of keyboard caught
> on fire on mine). As such, apparently they
> have become too conservative with fan
> opperations at this stage.
Whether the above statement is true or false, now I understand better the background, as this notebook is my first HP.
Mike, what you have expressed are customer legitimate concerns, and one can easily imagine that the wording you used is no different from what the HP Support Team is getting everyday.
I agree that potential customers should know about both the machine's quality and flaws, having a maximum of information before deciding to purchase it or not. I wish I had that information before I bought mine.
Now what should I do ?
Except for this big temp/fan problem, I really like the nx6110. Here in France it is just not that easy to return to the manufacturer this kind of product (I did not buy it directly from HP France but from a reseller) unless you want to battle with both HP and your reseller for weeks.
I guess, I have no other choice than being patient, and wait for a solution from HP.
I believe Andy is a very intelligent and helpful person (see how active he is on this forum), and hopefully, he doing his best to have HP coming out with a solution for the NX/NC6xxx series. |
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Rainald
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May 13, 2005 09:12:55 GMT
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Cheng,
living in Germany, I do not think that the legislation France might be too differnt if it comes to faulty product.
IMO you were entitled to giving back the machine which definitely at present does not meet the requirements for a notebook standard.
There's enough of proof available.
If I had bought this machine I would not hesitate to tell the seller that I give it back. For sure this could not be an affair of weeks.
Taesler |
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Cheng
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May 13, 2005 10:04:23 GMT
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Taesler,
About faulty product, same customer rights apply here in France hopefully, but as far as I understand it, the problem we are talking about, so far, cannot yet be categorized as a product defect or default, whatever it is named in English.
It is more a "flaw", see merriam-webster definition :
> an imperfection or weakness and especially
> one that detracts from the whole or hinders
> effectiveness
From the elements we have got so far, it is a matter of either bad design or ACPI settings being too low (choose one, maybe both), and yes, it does hinder the overall effectiveness of the product.
It would become a default when the always running fan or any other component starts to fail prematurely (or as Marketing would put it : before the certificed MTBF...). |
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Mike Barton
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May 13, 2005 10:09:36 GMT
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Andy, I can certainly appreciate that the issue is not as simple as initial trip points.
And thank you for not abandoning us.
If this is a casual affair for you to oversee this issue, why is it that someone does not step in to deal with it?
This is a major new product line for HP, and the company is advertising this machine big time.
I guess one issue here is that people turn to forums for actual results rather than talking to tech support people on the phone that would rather be chewing bubble gum.
Andy, I, and apparently the high-points others, really appreciate your help on this, and was feeling it was all in vein - just a bunch of massage oil to keep me from returning the machine.
That's all. Do say that any fix will be issued as an update, and when when reasonable. |
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Cheng
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May 13, 2005 10:20:56 GMT
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Andy,
Thanks for keeping us posted. About the first fan trip point, you said :
> raising it doesn't help, you have the
> same problem but with a warmer system
I would say that I prefer a warmer system with no fan running at all when browsing the Internet or doing some simple text editing.
This is what I have personally experienced on the Toshiba Tecra A2 Celeron M 340, no fan at all, and the temperature is around 50 C +/- and this was a really enjoyable experience.
It is an acceptable compromise, better than the actual situation.
So why refusing to give it a try as your post suggested it ? |
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Jon Swanson
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May 13, 2005 10:45:12 GMT
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I think what it comes down to here is that the cooling system is undersized, and (like Andy just said) they have discovered that changing the fan trip points doesn't help. System is hotter, fan still runs, so you can have a cool system with the fan running all the time or a hot system with the same problem.
I hope they can come up with an improved drop in retrofit cooling system, but it will be difficult to do within the available space. |
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JosephF
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May 13, 2005 13:48:20 GMT
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Just wanted to say that (from previous experience) when Andy gets involved, things seem to happen, so while I personally am not affected by this issue (don't have this model) I will say that having had an issue with a previous system, once Andy got involved, a resolution appeared soon after.
So in essence he's saving you months of tech-support phone calls and useless system repairs.
In my mind there are a few people at HP that actually care about resolving customers' problems, and Andy is one of them! Keep it up Andy, as people like you (because of your concerns and involvement with clients via this forum) are the best asset HP has going for them!
Obviously if you are in a work environment that does not allow for time, you might want to select a different system. But if you can yield for a short time, I would have faith that Andy will push for you and get to the bottom of things as soon as possible. |
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Endogin
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May 16, 2005 18:19:15 GMT
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I am just waiting about the end of this issue to buy a newone nc6120.
It is time to retire my old evo n160.
Hurruy Andy! |
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Jon Swanson
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May 16, 2005 20:03:40 GMT
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Andy - what's the news from your meeting last Friday? |
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Lasse Andersson
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May 17, 2005 17:01:49 GMT
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I have the same fan problem as everybody else in this thread, but I have not yet seen my model being discussed. My Hp is a nw8000 and the fan is extremely annoying. I bought the laptop last summer and a couple of months ago I upgraded the RAM with a 1 gb module. From what I remember I haven't noticed the fan before upgrading - can it have anything to do with that? Is it possible that the new memory makes the CPU work harder and get warmer? |
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Andy Fisher
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May 17, 2005 17:36:07 GMT
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Jon, sorry for no response yet. Been under the weather for a couple of days. Should be back in tomorrow.
I know how paranoid everyone gets when things go silent. |
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Endogin
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May 19, 2005 21:12:18 GMT
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Andy Fisher
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May 20, 2005 10:50:13 GMT
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Here's what we know:
There is no "solution" to this issue, but before you go running to the hills yelling the world is coming to an end, let me say a few things.
The laptops you have are thin and light and built to the highest design standards. However, the trade off to a thin and light unit is heat dissapation. Even while idle the fan will cycle on and off. To often? I think so, we are evaluating our trip points.
For those people that have Celeron processors that don't have the power management features of the Pentium M processors then the fan will be on most of the time. The Celeron processors are lower speed processors and may run cooler than say the 2.1Ghz Pentiums but nevertheless the fan will run more. This may be a good thing since you probably don't notice it as much as if it turned on and off all the time.
On Pentium M systems that utilize speedstep technology the transition from low speed to max speed causes a significant temperature spike for about 1 sec which happens while browsing a web site for example. The spike puts us over the trip point and causes the fan to turn on. We are working to filter out the spike and prevent the fan from coming on so frequently. However, we need to do this without violating the ACPI specification, this is under investigation.
Another thing we have successfully accomplished is to ramp the fan speed up and down in small increments to prevent the suddenly on/suddenly off syndrome. This far improves perception in a quiet office environment.
Work is not finished on this issue, we are now investigating the features of the thermal sensor to see if we can improve upon the temperature reporting.
I am trying to provide you with all the information I have as we attempt to satisfy our customers. |
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Wiktor
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May 20, 2005 15:06:19 GMT
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Thank you for the update Andy, we really appreciate what you are doing here.
But notice the thread title: "- Fan is always on" that's ALWAYS and it's coming from someone who owns a Pentium M based laptop. If there is nothing that can be done about this, then the only conclusion is that the cooling solution IS not capable of providing enough heat dissipation.
That's unless you're going to be running at 800MHz all the time.
During this week I put my laptop to some normal use (not just idling and watching the temp :)) after a couple of hours the temp is at 50C all the time, sometimes hitting 55C - I understand that there isn't much that can be done.
Maybe just one thing: I believe the laptop should be able to shut off the fan at least when it hasn't been doing anything for the last 10 minutes. In order to achive that the first trip point MUST be set higher minimum 50C, better yet 55). There is no way around this.
Better get used to that fan I guess... |
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Radovan
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May 20, 2005 16:18:04 GMT
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hi andy, i also have the same problem with my brand new nx6110 Celeron M version.
1) i just wondered if it's possible to make a compromise - slow the fan down a little and set the first trip point higher (as proposed cca 55C)
2) can you tell us whether is "fixing" of this issue a question of days, weeks ...
thank you for your help,
radovan |
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Mindaugas
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May 20, 2005 16:20:25 GMT
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We have the same problem with nc6120. Fan runs all the time, even notebook is turned off - CPU fun still runs (while Power Cord is connected). Changing function in BIOS (fan always on while on AC) didn't help. We flashed the newest BIOS, changed the motherboard, but problem still remain. |
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Endogin
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May 20, 2005 17:25:59 GMT
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I am just thinking about that the Intel "Sonoma" could be a hotier processor.
Well, let's just wait this work to be done.
Hurry Andy! |
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Andy Fisher
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May 20, 2005 17:30:21 GMT
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Mindaugas, your system needs to be sent in for repair. The wires to the fan are shorted out to a keyboard support post. Call customer support and arrange for service. |
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Cheng
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May 20, 2005 18:30:33 GMT
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Hello everybody,
Some people here might be interested to hear my personal experience.
Got enough of the fan always running, I eventually upgraded the CPU, replaced by myself the Celeron M 350 that came with the NX6110 with a Pentium M 1.7 GHz Dothan (400 MHz FSB) and applied a new thermal grease layer. Other components upgrade include the RAM from ridiculous 256 MB to 1 GB, the HDD from a 40 GB Seagate to 80 GB Samsung, added Intel 2100B WIFI Mini PCI card.
The attached screenshot is the result of one hour wireless browsing with Firefox (several tabs opened) and two ssh sessions with putty, both running on a VPN connection in the background (XP's VPN connection). This screenshot is from MobileMeter.
Ambiant temp is ~20/21 C here in Paris, not really a mid-may temp.
If you look closely at the first temperature (the upper one), you'll notice the following things :
- the thermal sensor is very touchy, each CPU usage sudden spike makes the temp raise up by several degrees. On the screenshot, most of the CPU spikes are due to heavy HTML pages (like this thread page on the HP forum) when processed by Firefox for the first time and the CPU reaches its maximum at 1700 MHz. Light or simple HTML pages do not produce CPU spikes, nor when they are already cached.
- the temp is raising progessively, how fast the raise is will depend on what you are doing. It appears that when on battery the cruising temp is steady at 40 C +/- when the load is light or at idle, well at least when ambiant temp is around 20~22 C like the actual temp in my room. I have no idea the average temp will be this summer when ambiant will reach the 27~30 C or above.
- when on AC power, the crusing temp is between 40 and 44/46 C, so higher by 3 or 5 degrees than when running on battery. I have no idea why it is so.
- given that the temp, since the upgrade, rarely reaches its first trip point on battery, i.e. 45 C, the fan is most of the time OFF when doing some light tasks (browsing, text editing were the main uses I had in mind when buying this model). That makes a huge difference, and, indeed, the extremely annoying fan being always on when running the NX6110 with a Celeron M is now only bad memories.
- As soon as the temp reaches the 45 C, the fan starts blowing, and it does blow until the temp is going back to 40 C, not before. After the temp has reached the 40 C, the fan is continuing to blow for 15 or 20 seconds, probably to make sure that the temp is not going to raise up again as soon as the fan stops. Anyway, that's a strange behaviour I think.
Besides, when the fan is running to cool down the CPU from 45 to 40, it runs a single high speed.
Some thoughts :
- the notebook is now pleasant to use since the upgrade.
- the NX6110 was not specifically designed for the Celeron M, with the first trip point being as low as 45 C, it makes the notebook unusable with the fan always on (effects on battery life, customers' experience with HP's notebooks [working with a noisy notebook is not enjoyable at all], etc.). Now I did not say that people should avoid buying this model with Celeron M processors.
- Jon's NC6120 must be part of a defectiv batch, since his notebook is running with a Pentium M with Intel SpeedStep technology, the fan should not be running all the time.
- and for God's sake, please don't tell me about the warranty being void... |
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Cheng
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May 20, 2005 18:54:53 GMT
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Here is another screenshot from MobileMeter showing the fan on/off cycle when running on AC power.
This confirms that when the 40 C is reached, the fan continues to blow for 50 seconds up to one minute (and not 10/15 seconds as I said in the previous post).
My preference goes to, if not a better cooling system with a new design (worldwide call-back for hardware replacement ?), at least a BIOS fix with a higher trip point at 55 C (50 C would be useless/hopeless for Celeron M). |
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Cheng
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May 20, 2005 19:01:35 GMT
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By the way, the fan control panel of the Centrino Hardware Control does not work for the NX6110 (panel greyed). I did not tried the CPU Voltage tweak. |
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grayson
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May 21, 2005 03:40:02 GMT
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andy , you have made thin and light machines before ; and very good they were , which is why you you have a lot of faithful customers ; people can see there is a very good used market in consequence .
but these machines all seem to run happily at around 50C ; is it not therefore unrealistic to try and expect more powerful modern processors to run at lower temperatures ?
I asked a friend in german with a new generic machine from his local supermarket [begins with A if you are still looking rainald ]to install mobilmeter and see what temperature it runs at and when the fan cuts in.......around 50 was the response for light running temp, and it doesn't generally cut in except in high temperatures for the rest [serious work is done onhis desktop ]
so although your point about temperature spikes is well made , I am still not absolutely clear why you don't have the old fashioned 55 cut in ; I bet you wouldn't be involved in a lengthy discussion with people who were making toast on their keyboards .
I suppose I am saying that my m700 is now nearly 4 years old , invariably runs at 50'ish with no apparent harm [except that I have a suspicion that the prevalence of vtb/battery problems is temperature related],cuts in at 55 when running something serious ;it lacks enough cooling power to allow me to sit in my garden in mid-summer in the south of france, which I accept.
I don't see anyone here who wouldn't accept these settings for this new series either ; what is stopping you doing this ? if it is marketing ,don't listen !
grayson
ps , I noticed the number of posts in this forum suddenly decrease to below 100 yesterday ; have been you using your influence ? |
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Cheng
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May 21, 2005 08:12:47 GMT
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I also did notice that the number of posts changed for the last two days...hum hum...
Andy, thank you for the information. Do you have any schedule as for the availabily of the fix ? About the screenshots I posted, do you think these are normal temps ? Is it the "Working As Designed" behaviour ?
There are quite a lot of people here with brand new machines who are puzzled and wonder if they should return their notebook or not, and if the fix is going to take another couple of weeks or months ...
I believe, nowadays people are more demanding , this is good for product competition in the laptop market, and one of their legitimate expectation is to have a quiet machine for basic tasks, which, obviously, is not provided by some units belonging to the NX/NC6xxx series. |
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Rainald
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May 21, 2005 08:38:53 GMT
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Andy,
as a still really happy M700 owner I can only second what Grayson said on his machine.
Altough I understand that the new fast processor naturally produce more heat, I do not understand why the temperature limits have been set so much lower than in the M700 (which also were "lightweight" machines at their time).
Rainald |
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Rainald
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May 21, 2005 08:41:36 GMT
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Cheng,
|| I also did notice that the number of posts changed for the last two days
|| ...hum hum...
Do you mean to say that posting were put away?
Censoring once more?
I have followed this therad carefully. I cannot remeber any posting which would have violated the guidelines.
Rainald |
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Isabelle W
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May 21, 2005 09:42:53 GMT
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I don't know what you are talking about regarding no. of posts. A couple of days ago it turned over 100 - and when I write my answer right now, it is 111 postings. Mine will be 112 I guess.
Or what (if anything) am I missing?
Isabelle |
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Isabelle W
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May 21, 2005 09:50:42 GMT
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OK,
don't mind me, I've seen it (or rather not I guess) now... :0 |
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grayson
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May 21, 2005 11:12:40 GMT
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rainald ,as isabel has obviously noticed , there are now some posts that make no sense , but it seems that andy didn't throw a wobbly !
sorry , you may not know that one....suffer a fit of pique .
grayson |
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Peter Walgemoed
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May 21, 2005 13:49:29 GMT
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I have just ordered a nc6220 and hope I don't face a similar fan problem as mentioned in this thread. I noticed one interesting thing when comparing the service manuals of the 6120 and 6220. The cases are different. The 6220 has bigger ventilation slots at the bottom (square instead of round) and possibly also on the side. The fan and heat sink are the same. I can imagine that is very important to leave the underpart of the laptop open to suck in fresh air. Did any of you notice a difference in fan behaviour with this bottom ventilation blocked or not?
Peter
Ps. I must compliment HP with putting their service manuals on-line. It's great to see how the units are build and were designed for service. |
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Rainald
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May 21, 2005 22:48:59 GMT
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Grayson,
|| suffer a fit of pique .
Sorry, I don't understand this.
Rainald |
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grayson
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May 22, 2005 01:15:35 GMT
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rainald ,pique is to be offended .... in this by someones criticism of all the efforts he has made , hence my pianist remark
grayson |
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Cheng
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May 22, 2005 06:42:22 GMT
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Rainald :
> Do you mean to say that posting were
> put away? Censoring once more?
Censorship...I let you ask the HP Moderators what name should be given to that.
Three things, or evidences :
- I recall a post from someone, must be Mike, in which there was the word "jibber-japper" (he wrote it that way) I did not understand. This is the very kind of things I remember well, I made a search on online Merriam Webster with no success, instead there exist two separate words: jibber and jabber.
I eventually got the explanation from an american colleague.
- I also recall a post from same Mike where there was a link to a review of his HP notebook on CNET, pointing to the "fan always on" default.
- on last Friday (or was it Thursday ?), I checked this thread every now and then, and at one time, I found 100 posts, sometimes later, this number got down to 98 or 99.
I too did not remember any post violating the guidelines.
Recent post, and this one too, are a bit off topic, but at least, it shows how the problem affects both customers and HP people. The saddest thing is that, from all the previous posts, customers (including me), except for this extremely annoying fan & temp problem, are really happy with the NX/NC6xxx series, and most people here know the good quality of the machines.
HP now must quickly come up with a durable solution if they do not want to deceive their customers. |
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Yehia
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May 23, 2005 01:30:48 GMT
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Anynews about a fix to the fan problem, my nc6000 is driving me crazy. any new bios expected to be released any time soon to fix it? |
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Endogin
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May 23, 2005 11:42:59 GMT
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People, do you believe that the nx 6120 fan's problem could decrease the batery charge? The HP site talk about this machine can stay 4,5 hours on. Does it right? |
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Cheng
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May 26, 2005 17:16:58 GMT
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Hello,
Seems like I really like the features and built-in quality of the new NC/NX6xxx series, since I have ordered one NC6120 for the company :-)
Outside its excellent qualities, another good reason to go with the NC6120 was that this model is one of the rare notebooks today that come with a serial port (RS-232 - D-Sub (DB-9)), we will be using it to plug in specific external GPRS/GSM modems.
Will keep you posted about the fan issue, if any, and if I ever have the time or the chance to play with. The model is this one :
http://h10010.www1.hp.com/wwpc/fr/fr/sm/WF06b/22239-283591-283591-283591-283597-12095344-25958205.html
By the way, Andy, any news about the BIOS fix or whatever definitive solution ? |
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Chuck Stacey
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May 28, 2005 02:59:21 GMT
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UGH. I just bought this sytem today, and after a full charge, only got about 2 hours of battery life. All I was doing was surfing, and sending a few emails. I then noticed that the fan was on. ALWAYS on.
Andy this is a huge problem. If HP cannot fix this, then the battery claim is completely bogus. I understand that you are helping the situation, and thank you for that. I just really love this little notebook, and do not want to have to take it back, and switch to a Dell. I love HP products, and support, and I really hope that a fix can be found. Or free extended battery's can be sent out to reach the claim that HP has made on the battery life. |
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Mike Barton
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May 28, 2005 06:36:03 GMT
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I see that HP used DDR 333 RAM for the machine. Would upgrading to DDR2 and 533Mhz, which is said to run cooler as it draws less juice, help with the fan? Better question: can the machine use DDR2 533 RAM as the Pentium M 915GM chipset is designed for. As info is slim on memory for the 6120, is it 200-pin 4200 SODIMM?
Thanks for any help. |
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Isabelle W
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May 29, 2005 05:22:29 GMT
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I also think that battery life is "not true" compared to advertised (about 2.5 vs. 4.5 h)
Maybe it is because the celeron on my machine that battery life is shorter than advertised, and on a machine with celeron it really is 4.5 h?
Or is it with the extra travel-pack battery you get this battery life?
However, when working on battery, the fan is even more busy then else. So I try not to. |
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Radovan
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May 29, 2005 13:40:37 GMT
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Hello everybody,
just a note to the trip points:
My nx6110 (Celeron C350) always runs with the fan on (first trip point) - usually 46 C, however these days are very hot here in the Czech Republic and my notebook is running constantly at the temperature higher than 50 C so it reaches the second trip point (55 C) and cannot get under 50 C so that I CAN HEAR THE FAN RUNNING AT THE SECOND SPEED ALL THE TIME and this is very, very irritating -> the first trip point shouldn't be lower than 55 C in my opinion.
Andy, pleeease, give us BIOS fix I can't stand this noise |
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Yehia
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May 29, 2005 16:14:50 GMT
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I had the same problem with compaq nc6000, the fan keeps go 'off' and 'on' every 15 seconds, after I called HP support and checked everywhere it seems that this how the machine was designed to work and many people aware of this situation even in our work place.
I know the fan issue isn't 'life or death', but for such a line of product it is crucial to solve such problems.
There is a flaw in the nc6xxx machine and it is obvious, they should have fixed by a bios update or a call for a design change. |
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Endogin
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May 30, 2005 01:20:37 GMT
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My new nx6120 just arrived this weekend. Look the crazy fan in an image attached.
I prefer a long and quiet run than this go on & off, like on my evo n160... |
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Isabelle W
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May 30, 2005 01:59:30 GMT
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Sorry, but for my previous posting to make sense - try centrino for the second processor name.
:0 |
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Cheng
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May 30, 2005 05:50:45 GMT
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Endogin,
Very strange behaviour indeed. The cycle on/off is far too frequent and is different from what I have experienced so far, both with a Celeron M and a Pentium M inside the box (see my previous posts).
What is the processor of your nx6120, Celeron M or Pentium M ? The MobileMeter temps graphs you posted are based on battery or AC power ? What usage did you have during this session (web browsing/text editing or heavy duty) ?
And is your system configured on "Laptop" under the Power Management menu ?
Still waiting for a fix... |
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Rainald
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May 30, 2005 20:36:53 GMT
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Awful, just awful!!!
Once more postings censored away. <grrrrhhh>
Seems that I really have to think on leaving this place.
Rainald, who's angry as angry can be. |
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Endogin
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May 30, 2005 21:34:26 GMT
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My specs:
Pentium M 1.73
MobileMeter are were based on AC Power
I was using the IExplorer, and instaling some programs, no video or games.
The power management was Alway on.
On Max Battery, the processor runned at 800mhz, and the fan worked only a few times.
I liked this machine very mutch, but I'm waiting a new bios release!
PS. I didn't update any drive on this laptop, how I just saying, I'm waiting. |
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Endogin
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May 30, 2005 23:40:09 GMT
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New test:
The first half of the test was made on the ac power, with alwayss on scheme.
The second half was on the ac power portable/laptop. In this last case, the fan worked after not too short time long space than the first half period. |
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Olle M
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May 31, 2005 07:16:01 GMT
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Hi
Exatctly the same problem on an nx8220 bought last week. Have been reading your post with great interest and am impressed with Andys work and updates on this forum. Never seen anything like it!!! However I think I will be forced to return the computer while I still have the chance and get the refund. Its the best computer I've ever laid my eyes... except for Mr Fan that is!!!
Just wanted to inform you guys that I think many like me are following the discussion without making any posts just because the lack of technical knowledge regarding these things. It DOES NOT mean that we are less interested in a solution...
Good luck to you all!!! Olle |
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Cheng
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May 31, 2005 08:13:01 GMT
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@Endogin,
Try with Power Management set on "Laptop", also make sure you have enable in the BIOS the "SpeedStep" feature and disabled the "Fan always on when on AC Power".
@Rainald,
I recall there was a post from Andy that was deleted too, the post in which he overreacted and said that the thread was over for him, this post came after Mike's "rant".
Anyway, still hoping for a fix... |
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Jon Swanson
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May 31, 2005 09:21:13 GMT
N/A: Question Author
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I didn't pay much attention to claims that messages had been deleted from this thread until I looked back and saw that several of my own detailed postings have been removed. It appears that this thread is being constantly sanitized to minimize the issue and its impact.
While I agree with the removal of off topic postings or postings that are abusive or illegal, this should not extend to factual, on-topic material and user experiences.
Look in the "Guidelines for Participation" for this forum, you will find the line "A posting that is deemed not acceptable may be edited and/or removed without notice at the discretion of HP." with several examples of unacceptable content.
The #1 example in that list should be "Any posting that exposes serious problems with HP products or services or has the potential to make HP look bad."
If you want to make an impact on this fan problem, you might try posting to an unbiased review site like:
http://reviews.cnet.com
http://www.pcworld.com/reviews
http://notebookforums.com
http://www.notebookreview.com
http://www.epinions.com
etc.
I'm sure you can look forward to this posting being removed very shortly. |
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Mike Barton
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May 31, 2005 11:04:21 GMT
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With some of my postings censored herein, no fix for an obvious problem, and week after week of Andy saying something was in the works to address the problem but no resolve, I think it is time time to step thins up.
Is this all in vain, expecting something of a business support forum??
It is winter here in Australia and with cooler temps when off the cord my nx6120 is OK, but when on the plug the fan runs all the time when only a browser is open. Silly.
Enough already. I want a replacment. I am going to ring tomorrow...
Done, or bad press for HP on the way. |
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Isabelle W
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May 31, 2005 12:17:17 GMT
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They say that 'no news are good news' but still, I think it would be nice to hear from you - Andy!
Isabelle |
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Cheng
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May 31, 2005 17:43:33 GMT
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@Isabelle,
Sorry to say that, but I do not think that the "no news are good news" applies in that case.
It's been nearly two months since Jon's first post, in the course of the year, it's been nearly half a year for these now not so new nx/nc6xxx series. How long before customers get a fix ? Will we, owner of the 2005 models, have any reliable solution before the lesson being learned and these problems being really addressed in the next 2006 models ?
@Endogin,
I guess, you did not enable the "Automatic SpeedStep" feature in the BIOS. The first screenshot you posted show a constant CPU frequency at 1.73 GHz, while in the second one, though running at lower speed, it never goes down below 800 MHz. With a Dothan 1.7 GHz 400 MHz FSB, mine is running as low as 600 MHz when doing light tasks (except a few spikes now and then).
As a side note, HP should display on their forums how many times each post has been viewed, this is a nice feature that most forums have.
Let us be patient, and wait for an update from Andy...and hopefully, with such expectations from left trustful customers, HP should come up with a definitive solution. |
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Isabelle W
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May 31, 2005 17:51:50 GMT
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>...and hopefully, with such expectations from left trustful customers, HP should come up with a definitive solution.
=)) |
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Rainald
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May 31, 2005 18:05:28 GMT
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Mike,
although you might have seen that I'm quite crtical if it comes to censorship, I must say that "I was not too amused" to see your last posting.
You had really overdone in a bad way earlier.
What you now say is anything but appropriate again.
Bashing HP again and bashing Andy, who in so far as a *peer* is volunteering in here, is not the way discussions in these forums should be led.
|| Is this all in vain, expecting something of a business support forum??
Obviously who have wrong imaginations on what a company's support forum is good for. It neither is a place for addressing the company officers nor a place for ranting.
|| It is winter here in Australia and with cooler temps when off the cord my
|| nx6120 is OK, but when on the plug the fan runs all the time when only a
|| browser is open. Silly.
Silly indeed. I can fully understand that you are angry.
But this has been said over and again and their ain't no use in repeating this a hundred times and more. No use in beating a dead hores, IMHO.
|| Enough already. I want a replacment. I am going to ring tomorrow...
Honestly speaking, that's what I would have done a longer while before already.
There's is a serious bug. If it cannot be fixed in a foreseeable period of time, the client is entitled to give back the machine being built on a defective construction. Period.
Officially contact HP, have a "case" opened and have it escalated to the proper level.
|| Done, or bad press for HP on the way.
Honestly speaking, behaving this way is not only useless as no official will see this threat. It's beyond the border of adequate behaviour in a forum like this. He who throws around threats of the "bad press" sort may feel better having letting steam off. But it's not good for anything else.
Rainald |
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Isabelle W
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May 31, 2005 18:11:50 GMT
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I fully and totally agree with latest posting from Rainald.
Isabelle |
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Rainald
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May 31, 2005 18:16:38 GMT
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Thanks, Isabelle!
"Great minds think alike" <gbg>
Rainald |
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Endogin
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May 31, 2005 19:23:23 GMT
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Raynald, I agree with you 100%.
By the way, I believe that my nx6120 has a intel sonoma processor pentium M 740.
I saw the bios, and the option speedstep is on (automatic).
I think that the somnoma processor runs on 800mhz at least, because of this it could have more power consumption. |
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Peter Walgemoed
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May 31, 2005 20:58:54 GMT
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My 2 cents to the discussion. I suppose the issue is now an HP marketing one to decide to change the conservative current settings and risk a high return rate later on in the process versus losing a large number of customers, and possibly worse, a big part of the market, if they don't come up with a solution now. My guess is that it isn't a general design flaw and that other notebook suppliers face similar issues.
I think the biggest problem with the current temperature settings, is that it leads to illogical fan behaviour, because it is based on arbitrary trip points, which are difficult to get right, because one doesn't know the environment conditions.
I can accept the following behaviour and hope it can/will be implemented as a bios upgrade.
When working on battery my major concern is battery life, and not performance. Also I would not like it to get too hot on my lap, without too much fan noise. So an acceptable behaviour for me would be to throttle down the speed as much as possible. Only when the temperature continues to increase; eg. temperature at (time1) is x degrees higher than at (time0), the fan is allowed to kick in to cool it down. This I believe is a different temperature control loop than currently present, because it reacts to temperature differences and not absolute temperatures. To support short performance boosts the processor is allowed to ramp up for a short period of time in line with the difference between (time0) and (time1) to averagely cool it down to the temperature at (time0) without fan.
I can accept a "performance mode" with contineously running fan, because the laptop was not designed for this task. That's what to my opinion a desktop (fan as well) or workstation is for. It would be nice to make this a general "performance mode" setting. I can also imagine a "whisper mode" (similar to Samsung), where the speed is always throttled down. So it's simple: let the user select the two special modes if needed and expect a "standard battery" behaviour as described above.
Please give your comments and improvements to this proposal. Perhaps we can as customer group all define what we would like as behaviour without discussing technical trip points (that should be their concern). In this way we make a stronger point to HP development to do it our way, than continue complaining about the current situation.
Peter |
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Andy Fisher
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Jun 1, 2005 15:14:50 GMT
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Peter, these profiles are already available via the Power Profiles.
If you select Max Battery, when on battery the system will run at minimum speed and as the battery discharges the system will clock throttle in increments as the battery discharge.
If you select Always On the system system will run always at the Maximum CPU speed.
There is a white paper on MS site that explains the different profiles but as usual MS has done a shuffle at I can't find it at the moment. |
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Andy Fisher
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Jun 1, 2005 15:21:52 GMT
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Peter distracted me for a moment there.
Well, I'm excited. It looks like we may have some good news soon regarding this issue. I am currently doing normal minor tasks on the laptop like browsing etc and fan is not coming on at all. In fact it will take some significant work or the processor running full on to get it to turn on.
Don't hold your breath, we have to re-run alot of benchmarks to re-run but I wanted to let you know that my frustration is turning to elation. |
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Isabelle W
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Jun 1, 2005 15:34:41 GMT
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:D
I'm so very happy for you (and us)!
Just hoping that it will be applic. also for celeron machines.
Isabelle |
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Jon Swanson
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Jun 1, 2005 15:59:01 GMT
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Andy - thanks for the news.
Looking forward to testing your fix soon. |
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Cheng
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Jun 1, 2005 17:32:27 GMT
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That's pretty good news Andy. Thank you. |
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Endogin
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Jun 1, 2005 18:36:35 GMT
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Ok Andy!!! Now I can believe that I have done a very good choice getting a hp-compaq machine again... |
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Rob
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Jun 1, 2005 19:00:41 GMT
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Andy,
Out of curiousity, just what did you do? |
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Peter Walgemoed
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Jun 1, 2005 19:14:10 GMT
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Thanks Andy. Sorry for the confusion. I didn't know what the profiles did exactly. I am also curious if the fix is similar to the optimal behaviour I described.
Peter |
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Rainald
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Jun 1, 2005 20:01:40 GMT
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Thank you so much, Andy!
FWIW: For testing things I've been working on my good old M700 today for almost a whole day *undocked* (normally it's sitting in my "towered" Armada Station EM).
I know that one must not compare apples to bananas (1Ghz CPU compared to machines with almost three times as much), but I must say: During half a day of work (with AC as well as on battery only) there was a max. of 3 or 4 times when the fan would pop in (and this only in cases of *extreme* hard work [purposely done for testing].
IMO the designers of these new models did not do well .... <sigh>
Rainald |
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Andy Fisher
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Jun 2, 2005 10:20:39 GMT
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Rainald, let not blame the designers. We have world class mechanical and electrical folks here. The main problem being the temperature diode inside the Dothan processor. The reason for the difference with previous products is the Dothan processor whose diode is buried within the dye and whose accuracy leaves a little to be desired. When the CPU performance is increased the core dye temperature increases dramatically for the short time it is full on.
We are trying to provide some hysteresis for this so it doesn't impact the cooling algorithm so much. |
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Mike Barton
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Jun 2, 2005 11:35:26 GMT
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Yehia
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Jun 2, 2005 11:36:13 GMT
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But nc6000 that I had doesn't come Dothan CPU and it has 1.4GHz Banian CPU and it had the same problem. |
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Rob Elm
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Jun 2, 2005 13:13:54 GMT
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"Rainald, let not blame the designers. We have world class mechanical and electrical folks here. The main problem being the temperature diode inside the Dothan processor. The reason for the difference with previous products is the Dothan processor whose diode is buried within the dye and whose accuracy leaves a little to be desired." -- Andy Fisher
You don't want him to blame the designers; then you turn around and blame the processor. (sic)
I was up till 3am replacing the thermal grease on my Evo n600c. After I finished the maximum temperature droped by 38F! If it's not the designers and electrical folks, can I blame the blindfolded monkeys could have working there? |
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Rainald
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Jun 2, 2005 13:36:30 GMT
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Andy,
thanks for your reply.
|| We have world class mechanical and electrical folks here.
I would not doubt that at all.
And obviously I have said things the wrong way. I'm so sorry for that.
Pls accept my apologies.
And thanks for the explanation of the Donath problems too.
Rainald |
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Rob Elm
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Jun 2, 2005 15:52:30 GMT
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Hi Rainald,
The CPU core is actually called Dothan and not Donath as Yehia pointed out. The onboard diode is generally quite accurate for most uses. Read this article on CPU temp calibration:
http://www.silentpcreview.com/article191-page1.html
I don't like to be harsh but blaming the issue on the CPU diode is pretty ludicrous in this situation. |
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Andy Fisher
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Jun 2, 2005 16:06:45 GMT
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"Contradicting nicely with a smile on my face"
While I did mention that the diode does lack some accuracy, that is inherit in all analog sensors and the conversion to a digital value.
My main point was the massive increase in the die temperature during full CPU performance and then the sudden drop when reduced to low power.
I'm sorry if I appear ludicrous to you. :( |
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Chuck Stacey
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Jun 2, 2005 21:59:10 GMT
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Andy, Don't worry about it. I understand what you are talking about and just know that some of us are very, very thankful for what you do here.
Patiently waiting.
Chuck |
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grayson
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Jun 3, 2005 03:31:35 GMT
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andy ,this problem could cost a lot of sales [bad news travels fast ] ,so I hope your company is as grateful for your efforts here as the bulk of the contributors are [though I doubt it somehow , companies rarely are ]
but your updates do call into question the pre-launch testing programme ,do they not?
I hope lessons will be learned !
grayson |
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Andy Fisher
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Jun 3, 2005 08:35:13 GMT
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Most of our testing is done in labs which tend to be quite noisy, so fan noise is not noticed. We do send pre-eval units to some of our customers who are interested. I guess we just didn't hit the hard core whiners like you guys. :) (just kidding). |
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Jon Swanson
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Jun 3, 2005 08:57:25 GMT
N/A: Question Author
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Andy - it sounds like you may have a solution for making the fan run less often. Can anything be done about reducing the noise from the fan when it does run? This fan is quite loud, especially at higher speeds. |
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Bartosz Beyer
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Jun 3, 2005 09:06:54 GMT
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Hello!
Im watching this thread from beginning. I read it and i knew what problem may I expect when I purchase nc6120 (celeron m version). I thought the fan problem won`t impact battery life as much as it actually did... In advertisement it was written that this model will work on battery up to 4,5 hours. My brand new nc6120 (i have it for about 2 weeks) works only 2,5 hours!!! Of course it has the fan problem as everyone in this thread. I hope that what Andy said about coming-up fix (or so) will boost battery life up to 4h. I bought that laptop because of the battery life :( Now i feel like i`ve been ripped off... I love my nc6120 but battery life is making it completly not mobile (for me of course).
PS. Sorry for my English! I do my best! |
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Robert
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Jun 3, 2005 10:19:19 GMT
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@bartosz: It's not the fan. Have you tried to minimize the brightness of the TFT? It makes a difference of over an hour to my notebook (pentium-m) and it runs longer than four hours then when it's about office work. Anyway, for the models with celeron-m 4.5h is not realistic, I guess. |
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Bartosz Beyer
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Jun 3, 2005 19:10:00 GMT
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I thought so... and yes! i`ve tried everything, i always have brightness on the lowest level :(
What is funny is that the info about battery life on HP Product pages has changed. I used HP Poland page to gather info about my future purchase, and it was clearly written there that the model with celeron m will work about 4hours on standard battery (which was fantastic feature for me and i`ve decided to buy it). Now that information has disapeared :( Now it only says that nc6120 has 6-cell battery and no other info about how long it will work on that battery :(( It looks for me that HP has made a mistake and im a victim of that mistake :( and now they are cleaning the mess...
Oh... and about the fan: im writing this using my laptop (only firefox, outlook, the wifi and antyvirus software and nokia software are working which can be seen on attached screenshot) on AC power (plugged in) and the fan is humming like crazy.
My laptop has 768MB RAM... Maybe this inflicts the battery working time? I even disabled windows xp cache file to prevent hdd running and use hibernation for faster boot up.
PS. I hope that HP Moderators won`t delete this post. Im very sorry for my words of complaint but i think everyone will understand me and how i feel.
PPS. I`ve attached a screenshot which showes what I mean about the battery. I think i`ll start a separate thread about this issue. |
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grayson
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Jun 4, 2005 01:37:01 GMT
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frankly , saying how long a machine would run on one battery charge was always ridiculous ;how long is a piece of string ; all depends on the usage .
of course , a standard test is possible .perhaps running a DVD with cut out at 20% using xp pro , for example .but even that is not exact [ screen settings etc.]
but it would give a better comparison
grayson |
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Stefan
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Jun 4, 2005 15:39:03 GMT
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Can someone tell me how these HP notebooks noise-level is compared to other brands with same specs ???
I got a NX9010 and it makes alot of noise, and our company have sold a few 9010 and some of the customers refers to them as "vacuum-cleaners" due to the noise.
I am about to buy a new one (nc6120 or nx7010), but this thread makes me a bit concerned.
Anyone knows if the nx7010 also have this problem ???
Can it be that the fans could be of better quality ? |
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Olle M
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Jun 5, 2005 06:38:26 GMT
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Andy: I understand that changes like this does not happen over night and that
new settings require heavy validations before any comments and recomendations
can be made.
1) However I would personally very much appreciate to know if you think it is
possible to make any changes that makes the fan less intensive in products
already out or if this will only be a feature in generations to come.
2) If so, will these new settings be applicable to NX8220 systems as well?
3) Still impressed by forums like this and all the competence that lies herein.
/ Olle |
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Ashley Hulme
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Jun 5, 2005 09:24:31 GMT
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I've been following this thread for a while, and it makes me pretty perplexed. I'm seriously considering purchasing an nx8220. I assume that the fan problem is also present on this model, because Andy is doing all his testing on an nx82xx? Does anybody have experience of this with their nx8220? Is the fan noise not as intrusive because the case/fan is larger?
Andy, do you have any idea as to the type of fix that HP is thinking about - if it is a hardware fix I assume it won't be retrospective to those units already sold? Or is it a BIOS/software update that existing owners can apply to their machines?
I understand that you can't give details of a timeline, but the TYPE of fix would be very useful.
Suffice to say, I'll go ahead and get one if there is a fix on the horizon I could apply at a later date... |
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Andy Fisher
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Jun 5, 2005 10:53:27 GMT
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While this issue has made us more sensitive to future designs, the goal here is to provide an improvement to the current product line (6xxx, 8xxx) in the BIOS. While I am running an 8xxx with the same kind of improvements, our focus right now will be for 61xx products since this thread was started with the 6120.
Yes, primary testing was done on 82xx, so you can be sure that will be our next target which will follow rapidly after the the 61xx issue has been improved upon.
However, even if we have the improvement in house, it has to be scheduled for a maintenance release which involves scheduling a full regression test on the BIOS, the release of which needs to coincide with other fixes & improvements to the BIOS.
Certain people who have cases open with 3rd level support and who have maintained a positive attitude may be selected to beta test a BIOS to ascertain their perceptions on the improvements made. |
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Rainald
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Jun 5, 2005 10:59:18 GMT
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Thanks once more, Andy!
IMO this would be the way to go.
Rainald |
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Ashley Hulme
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Jun 5, 2005 12:20:26 GMT
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Thanks for the fast response. In my opinion this allays any fear people should have.
If Andy has a fix in front of him and it will get scheduled for release sometime in the future in a BIOS update with other concurrent upgrades, then there isn't much of an issue any more.
I must echo some other comments in this thread, that it is really good that HP is interested in fixing problems - well done HP (via Andy). |
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Yehia
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Jun 5, 2005 13:32:21 GMT
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What about nc6000 product?
it has the same issue and you should focus. |
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Bartosz Beyer
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Jun 5, 2005 13:34:48 GMT
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Thank you Andy!
I hope that solution of the fan problem is very close :) And I think that if the fan wasn`t running i could gain some extra minutes on battery...
I look forward to hear that BIOS update will coming as soon as possible.
Thank you once more! |
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Jogi
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Jun 6, 2005 06:20:27 GMT
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And as someone mentioned, the issue is there with older models too.
I've used nc6000 and nc8000, and both of those suffered the same behaviour. So I sure hope that HP will provide BIOS update for those models also. |
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Cristian Secară
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Jun 6, 2005 14:00:28 GMT
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I own a brand new nc8230, operating it for three days now.
Yes, the fan is always on, but in *my* opinion this is a relatively good thing.
My point of view: being myself technically addicted (by job and/or by hobby) I know - from an engineering standpoint - that heat is always a great enemy for almost any electronic components.
Heat may be ignored for short term events, but should never be ignored when considering long term reliability.
That said, I'm feeling myself more comfortable knowing that my system is slightly noisy but cooler, than quiet but warmer. It is not THAT noisy anyway ... in fact, in my particular daily universe, I am surrounded by much more annoiyng noises than this laptop fan :)
I think that if something will or can be changed for the existing units, perhaps the best bet should be an option to let the user decide his noise vs. heat preferences (well, in the possible/allowable limits).
Cristi |
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Yehia
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Jun 6, 2005 18:39:33 GMT
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For business class laptops, the noise and portability are two crucial things in my opinion. For example, the place where I work they sold off some of their laptops because of that, NOISE. |
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Marko
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Jun 7, 2005 13:06:01 GMT
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Hi,
I have a nx8220 and have same problems with the fan as you have with nx6xxx. I think it is great that something is happening at HP with this problem. But of course I want them to make changes as quick as possible. Actually I were in contact with HP before I bought this notebook and they said that there will NOT be any problems with fan, but there are. I hope that HP will made changes in bios to nx8220 in same time.
Note: Compered to P4 notebooks this is quiet.
What have I done?
I have down clocked the ATI grafik card with software and also controling, visual, the CPU with another program. I haven't made any changes on CPU controls but I will when I know more about them. Hopefully HP will have released the new BIOS before that.
I am said that this must be done on a new notebook.
rgs,
Marko |
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Marko
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Jun 7, 2005 14:21:23 GMT
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I mean that I am "sad" and not said in one of the bottom lines
Marko |
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grayson
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Jun 8, 2005 04:53:30 GMT
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quick question , andy
you write the bios upgrade to overcome this problem as best you can .
users flash the bios to install , in order to overcome their problem
from time to time these installations fail ;machine no longer runs ; HP response , new motherboard .
will HP change this free of charge [with new bios installed !]?
grayson |
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Andy Fisher
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Jun 8, 2005 07:13:13 GMT
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grayson, unfortunately I am in engineering and have no knowledge of support's policies so I am not in a position to answer your question.
If it happens call CS and see what happens.
We do have recovery methods in the protected bootblock of the ROM that can allow a system to be re-flashed even if the BIOS update fails. |
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Marko
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Jun 8, 2005 07:24:27 GMT
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I have reading your notes and want to answear some questions, they are allready answerd but anyway.
From my point of view I want the laptop to be as quiet as possible when I am writing document or doing short search on Internet. I liked the answear someone give that way don't have a control meny for different kind of work. Exampel could be
1. write document, short Internet use, very low use of graffic and cpu = no fan at all, allmost.
2. watch movies...what ever, middle use of graffic and CPU
3. CAD work, Games, usually max power on graffic card and CPU.
Note: Compared to nx7010 this notebook have more fan activity.
I have also recognized a low noice on left side of the notebook, it is not there all the time?
One interesting thing is that if notebook is connected to net-power then clock rate on grafik card is allmost 3 times higher than when using battery. This can explain way it feels that fan is running less times when using battery, and it is true from my experience.
Everything else is good on the nx8220 notebook, I really like it!
Comment to the person that use notebook in University environment. It is true that the fan noice is not a problem in public environment but if you go to a silence/reading room the fan is a problem. If I am listening to music there is no problem but I use to write documents in middle of night and then the fan is a big problem to me.
I hope that employees at HP is still reading these notes and working on a solution and overlook the most negativ words beacause it is not personal.
It feels hard to spend lot of many on a new notebook and the only way to complain is this forum...
rgs,
Marko |
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lanex
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Jun 9, 2005 07:38:33 GMT
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I purchased nx6110 yesterday. Wish I had read this thread before purchasing.
The fan surely is always on, when temperature is about 46C.
It's a pity, this laptop is otherwise pretty good device.
Is there any info about the schedule of the bios fix? |
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Ashley Hulme
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Jun 9, 2005 08:15:00 GMT
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Well,
I received _y nx8220 about an hour ago, and yes the fan is on full ti_e when under ac power, but to be frank, its not exactly noisy. Its a very well built _achine. It is a pity that anyuone reading this thread would get put off buying one. The only co_plaint I have is that the _ key has fallen off! Still HP are sending _e a replace_ent key board asap.
A BIOS fix will be nice, but let's face it, the fan is pretty quiet and it isn't the end of the world - its _uch better that HP are building good notebooks that people want to buy!
I'_ off to practice not typing using the letter _ .... |
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gonzalo
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Jun 9, 2005 08:55:01 GMT
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Hi
I am thinking in buying a nc6230 or a nc8230.
Does anyone know if those modes suffer the same fan problem?
Thanks. |
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Andy Fisher
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Jun 9, 2005 09:06:32 GMT
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Ashley, thankyou for bringing some sanity to this thread. Internal folks to HP are also begging for a bootleg, it's bothering them too, but I guess it affects some more than others. |
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Rob
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Jun 9, 2005 18:25:47 GMT
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Well, I must admit that I went out and bought a Dell Inspiron 6000 last week. I got it yesterday, and noticed that some of you where wondering how your laptops fan behavior compares to other models...well my Dell fan is quiet, but it never turns off. The laptop is quite warm in my lap but the air comming out the vents is cool.
Earlier it was noted that if the laptop was allowed to heat too much, the keyboard would be too warm. Well, my dell keyboard is warm, not too warm...just enough to tell you it's alive.
What I don't understand is your idea of a fan being "too loud" because that depends on the person. But obviously there is a point where all agree, and it sounds like you have reached that point.
I hope you find a fix for your problem before you all go crazy or bald from pulling your hair out. |
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Rob
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Jun 9, 2005 18:27:54 GMT
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BTW, how can you tell what the temp is inside your computer? You people said something about it earlier...using speedfan? |
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Rainald
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Jun 9, 2005 18:39:30 GMT
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Rob,
best tool I know is "Mobile Meter".
Ols find it attached.
Rainald |
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Cheng
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Jun 9, 2005 20:03:55 GMT
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This is a forum, and as such, as long as people follow the guidelines, it is normal to read from time to time tough posts. We all know that.
Sure, we are thankful for HP to bring us this forum (even though to some extent this is the kind of thing customers expect from a great manufacturer), but it does not imply that people should keep silent about the problems they encounter with HP products, and it becomes harder when people are longing for a solution.
Besides, I have noticed that most people in this thread do post detailed report about their problem, thus bringing their contribution.
Rob, the question in the first place was about the fan running all the time. Only second (and on some machines only) comes the fan noise level when because it runs at single speed.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
PS: This post has been edited to remove potentially offensive language - Forum Moderator |
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grayson
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Jun 10, 2005 05:00:22 GMT
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andy , slightly off topic but related ,I always understood that the fan activity on boot was part of the POST programme ; but I have seen it said on this forum [not thread] that it is due to the high level of activity raising the temperature at that point .
is it programmed rather than a temperature related ?
grayson |
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Ashley Hulme
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Jun 10, 2005 07:47:46 GMT
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Cheng,
no one said that issues should not be kept silent - I think the word Andy was really looking for was "perspective" rather than "sanity" - if HP people internally, as well as the people on this forum, are concerned about the issue then it is something that requires addressing. However it's not a big enough issue, in my opinion, for people to start slating this new line as has been the case intermitantly here - and i think this is where Andy's "those who maintain a positive attitude" comment rightly comes from.
Anyway, now that I have got my nx8220, I am pretty darn happy with it. |
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Andy Fisher
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Jun 10, 2005 09:06:22 GMT
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grayson, the reason for high speed upon power up and boot (and we've reduced the speed upon power up) is that at the time the system is powered up we have no idea of the temperature of the system and have to assume it is critically hot until we can get the OS to read the sensor and determine the system is OK to spin down the fan. It's a safety thing. |
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Rainald
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Jun 10, 2005 13:08:20 GMT
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Dear moderator,
why again?
I read Cheng's posting.
I could not see anything which might have been harmful.
IMO it's just too much of censoring.
Rainald |
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Rob
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Jun 10, 2005 13:09:04 GMT
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Thank Rainald for the mobile meter. It works fine.
Well then I can tell you that my Pentium M processor runs at about 28.5c when you turn it on, and just went down to 27.5c, 26.5c after about 5 minutes of being on, in the Inspiron 6000. I don't know about your laptop, but this one has vents everywhere.
By making the processor work harder, I got it to go up to 29.5c, but I quickly fell back to 26.5c.
I hope you guys get a solution to your problem, but it sounds like your laptop just can't rid itself of heat fast enough.
I can't imagine my laptop getting to 50-60c! |
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Andy Fisher
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Jun 10, 2005 13:17:48 GMT
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Rob, you can't do apples to oranges comparison with this. It depends where the thermal sensors are located. I can tell you that with those temps the in built CPU diode is definately not being used. How many thermal zones are there and which one are you reporting. |
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Stephen Yu
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Jun 12, 2005 02:30:33 GMT
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I have silently followed this thread and have watched it really unfold. Please note that I do not own an HP NC-series computer, so I cannot say anything out of personal experience.
I think that it is inevitable that the fans will stay on the notebooks with the new Sonoma based processors. I have an IBM/Lenovo T43 notebook with a 1.86 Ghz processor and the fan on my notebook is always on as well. I think that it is widely known that the Thinkpad T43 is the direct competitor to the HP NC6XXX.
The air that comes out of my Thinkpad's vent is always lukewarm (bordering on to cold) and the fan is pretty quiet. When I set the IBM Power Manager to Power Source Optimized which turns off the adaptive processor speed and scrolled up and down this thread, I got my processor temperature to 60 degrees. The fan on my Thinkpad goes into medium speed once the computer reaches about 51-54 degrees. I have not had my T43 go into high speed before, only when the computer starts up. Since the Thinkpad has a similar form factor to the NC6XXX, there is probably very little that HP can do to make their computer run cooler.
One area I think that IBM has done better based on what I have read here is that the fan on the Thinkpad doesn't turn on immediately once it reaches a certain temperature. For example, if the temperature peaks over about 51 degrees, nothing happens, I have to hit it over to about 54 degrees before the fan goes into medium speed. But if the processor stays about 51 degrees, then the fan kicks in. The fan keeps cooling until it stays in the low 40 degrees for a while before going to the slower speed again. The computer doesn't seem to be able to go any lower than that, even when I force the fan on.
One thing that sort of annoys me about the Thinkpad is that the fan runs at full speed when the computer starts up. And it is LOUD, much louder than anything I have been able to get the computer to do once the computer has finally started.
I think what HP can do is to make the fan smarter and also raise the trip points. That way, the fan probably will be more tolerable and won't come out as frequently. From what I have read around, if you want a quieter computer, you will need to buy something that is bigger that will fit the larger cooling system. There has to be a few tradeoffs to making something with such a small form factor.
Since the "competition" does this, I am not sure what HP can really do about it. The noise is more of a norm rather than an exception. The only notebook that I know of that is of a similar form factor that doesn't run its fan is the Dell Latitude D610, but the construction on that is not as good and there is "feedback" in the headphone jack. Plus, it is missing a few features that the HP and Lenovo units have.
I have touched the new HP before and it looks to be pretty well made. So if Lenovo messes up the Thinkpad line, I am sure many corporate customers will be ready to make the switch. I know that I will be ready. HP has definitely made large strides in their business line. This new business line by HP will definitely keep Lenovo on its feet, especially if it wants to keep its marketshare. Competition is good for everyone. |
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Hans Brost
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Jun 12, 2005 11:32:57 GMT
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When chips are manufactured they are classified as to how hot they run at different clock speeds. HP uses hotter temp chips(cheaper), that's why the fan cuts in at 45.
I have a ze1210 with a BIOS that has NO settings. This is also a 'bottom line' issue for HP, since using a BIOS with lots of customizable options would be more expensive! Thus the 'no option' Bios.
PS. My next laptop will be either a Sony Vaio, or a custom built one by a local shop. The only good thing I can say about this HP laptop is that it hasn't totally broken down in 2 years. However, the harddrive DID go tits up, and HP refused to send me a new one (they wanted me to send it in instead, which was not an option), so I had to buy one at DriveSolutions.com. Also the left click doesn't work anymore, so I have to double tap the touchpad.
And assuming that the CPU is at 'critical temp' at bootup(therefore turning on the fan ) is not good. That's when the CPU is the COLDEST...
Btw, on the chance that somebody with authority actually cares, you can start by giving us a BIOS that is fully customizable, and buy better CPU's so you can set the fan cut in at 55-60 where it belongs...
z |
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Rainald
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Jun 12, 2005 11:47:21 GMT
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Hallo Hans,
Luft ablassen, schoen und gut.
But does this kind of ranting based on a wrong factual basis help anyone?
Rainald |
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Rob
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Jun 12, 2005 12:51:41 GMT
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There was only a temperature sensor in the hard drive and 1 somewhere else...Earlier it was noted that HP had 3, 1 was the one as reported by the operating system, and 2 others of which I can't really remember what you said. and of course it is lost in this mess of posts. Well, It only reports one temp in the program rainald gave me. And one other for the hard drive. |
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Stephen Yu
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Jun 12, 2005 15:54:26 GMT
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The new Intel Sonoma Pentium M processors do run hotter than their Dothan counterparts. But the newer processors also have a faster front side bus. It needs more voltage, and more power equals more heat.
I think that HP set the settings a little too conservatively, but this does not have to do with the "quality" of chips HP has purchased. Heck, my IBM/Lenovo runs its fan all the time too. If you buy a Sony, you will also find that the fan is on a lot. Intel does have ultra low voltage chips, but those run a lot slower and are meant for ultraportable computers. HP buys the same Pentium M as all of the other leading manufacturers. If you bought a computer with a Celeron-M, you knowingly bought the "inferior" processor without the power management technologies. The other manufacturers offer the Celeron-M as well and it is the same story over there too.
As for HP not replacing your hard drive, it could have been that your hard drive died because of abuse and HP wanted to check it out. Or it could be that the hard drive was not a customer replaceable item and therefore they wanted to replace it for you. If you don't follow their warranty policies, then don't expect for the manufacturer to replace it for you. Remember, it is their warranty, they make the rules. When you bought your computer, you should have known.
If you buy some "locally-built" computer, I should remind you that you will most likely be buying from one of the large ODMs such as Clevo. Notebook computers require far more research and development and large companies such as HP are the best at it. Plus, don't expect international support from all shops. By the say, Sony ranks rock bottom on PCWorld's reliability survey, although HP isn't far behind. |
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Andy Fisher
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Jun 12, 2005 16:06:17 GMT
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Rainald, I'm shocked.
Google xlation: "Air discharge, beautifully and well."
Does this mean "Well said"? Not like you. |
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Rainald
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Jun 12, 2005 16:36:51 GMT
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Andy,
the translation is seriously bad.
"Luft ablassen" means something like "To let steam off", "venting", in a way like giving oneself relief when under high pressure.
And "gut und schoen" in this context has the meaning of "might be".
It was said in a rather direct way against what Hans had said an the way he did it.
Not at all with a meaning that it was OK.
Rainald |
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JosephF
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Jun 13, 2005 01:39:03 GMT
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@Stephen: "The new Intel Sonoma Pentium M processors do run hotter than their Dothan counterparts".
Think you meant Banias? or 400mhz fsb Dothan? From what I've noticed the temps are -very similar- with 400mhz Dothans and 533mhz Dothans.....
There is a difference over the Banias core (original Gen.1 Pentium-M), but it's a small increase and can be avoided with slightly more expensive heatpipe+fan design assemblies.
Either way, I don't think comparing things (even if they are similar) unless they are 100% identical, as various environmental aspects can differ.
So while dell and ibm systems do differ in their fan operation, do understand the thermal environments are also different (case chasis for example, is not identical).
I'm making a long stretch here, but I think it would be best helpful if people referred to specific models (i.e. nc6120 or nc6000) instead of "nc6000 series". Just a suggestion to perhaps make things more efficient in the discussion. Just my 2 cents.
--- |
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Andy Fisher
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Jun 13, 2005 09:34:31 GMT
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Joe is right. This discussion is for 61xx, 6200, 82xx platforms. |
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Andy Fisher
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Jun 13, 2005 09:36:11 GMT
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I wish we could edit our own posts. Of course I meant 62xx in the above post. |
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Stephen Yu
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Jun 13, 2005 09:52:55 GMT
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I don't believe that Intel ever had any 533 mhz front side bus Dothans. The Sonoma, at least to the best of my knowledge, was the first Pentium M to be available with the faster FSB.
Because the faster front side bus, the slowest that the Sonoma processors can clock down to is 800 mhz, versus 600 mhz of the Dothan and earlier models. Since the minimum speed is higher, Sonoma processors will run hotter. Celeron-M processors don't have Speedstep and they will always run hot.
I was making the comparison to IBM/Lenovo since that is the computer that I use at home. Remember, I don't have a HP NC6XXX and therefore cannot base my conclusions on that model. However, my Thinkpad T43 is a comparable model (and the direct competitor to the NC6XXX) so I thought I would chime in on how the competition deals with the same problem. Like I said, the T43 runs its fans all the time too, especially when on AC power unless the power management is seriously changed. |
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Stefan
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Jun 13, 2005 10:37:29 GMT
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I would like a comparison by someone that has access to both nc61xx and maybe IBM T43, and not whether the fans are running at max, but how much noise there is. |
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Robert
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Jun 13, 2005 11:16:23 GMT
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@ Stephen: Sonoma is not the name of the CPU but the name of the new centrino platform including the current Dothan CPU with FSB533. Anyway, I don't think the difference in contrast to the former processors is decisively. |
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Endogin
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Jun 13, 2005 17:18:34 GMT
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Bla bla bla... and Andy, how many time until the end of this issue?
Thank you. |
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Cristian Secară
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Jun 13, 2005 19:48:30 GMT
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Hans Brost:
> And assuming that the CPU is at 'critical
> temp' at bootup(therefore turning on the fan
> is not good. That's when the CPU is the
> COLDEST...
That's not a correct approach.
Worst case scenario is when I am turning OFF the system (after a long period of gaming, for example) and then turning back ON the system immediately.
The system must face *this* case, not the max happiness on everything and everyone.
Cristi |
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grayson
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Jun 14, 2005 05:34:04 GMT
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contrary to other opinion I think that running the fan during POST is an excellent idea .
as andy explained , it guards against an overheating scenario before the temp sensors are working
it confirms that the fan is still in order ; if you get an overheating problem you already know not to change the fan!
grayson |
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Juha Larjomaa
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Jun 16, 2005 12:04:50 GMT
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I am anxiously waiting for the solution advertised by Andy. A BETA version of the solution would do as well.
However, I am worried that the focus seems to be almost entirely concentrated on other systems than my nc6000.
Andy, please make sure to escalate the fan issues on nc6000 as well. You can see my thread explaining similar symptoms here:
http://forums1.itrc.hp.com/service/forums/questionanswer.do?threadId=810375 |
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Klaus Neumann
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Jun 18, 2005 04:58:33 GMT
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After automatic installion of some win xp updates on my nx8220 (2GHz), the fan stays constantly on with temperatures around 43/47/33 (cpu/case/hdd) and no cpu load. I changed the power scheme to maximum battery (from portable/notebook) but nothing changed. When I look up ACPI Temperature Details via Centrino Hardware Control I get the following Information:
THRM0:
Actual Temperature: 43 C
Critical : 105 C
Passive Cooling: 100 C
Active Cooling 1: 85 C
Active Cooling 2: 70 C
Active Cooling 3: 60 C
Active Cooling 4: 15 C (!!!)
Did the win updates change the lower trip point to 15 C and makes my nx8220 be so noisy? Can I configure the trip points manually or has that to be done via the BIOS upgrades Andy is talking about?
Thanks for your help! |
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Cristian Secară
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Jun 18, 2005 10:47:44 GMT
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During last night, using my nc8230 on battery *only* (for approx 3 hours) and wake up from hibernation (can this be of some importance ?), the fan turned OFF and ON at low speed all the time, while the CPU stands constatly at 42 degree.
All wireless connections were off, display was with ambient sensor ON, loacal area connected at 1G (but no real traffic) and the USB adapter from my Microsoft Wireless Notebook Optical Mouse. CPU is 1.73GHz.
I will try the experience again in the following nights (during the day it's relatively hot here around), maybe from various power on variants (from "zero", or returning from standby, or returning from hibernation).
BTW, I never heard any high//low/whatever pitch sound from my laptop. Having it for two weeks now.
Cristi |
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Radovan
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Jun 22, 2005 11:00:08 GMT
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hello,
does anybody know, what's wrong with support&driver pages for nx6110? when i go to these pages the current version of BIOS is F.06 then when i hit reload the current version is F.03 ... when i click on something i can see either page with particular file to download or error (We apologize for the inconvenience! ...)
http://h18007.www1.hp.com/support/files/hpcpqnk/us/locate/64_6133.html
??? |
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Endogin
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Jun 22, 2005 11:40:32 GMT
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Does this update F.06 bring the solution for this fan problem? |
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Robert
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Jun 22, 2005 11:40:42 GMT
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@Radovan: I had the same problem and tried to load the site several times until I got the file. Anyway, in case you hope the update will have some effect on the fan behaviour you will probably be disappointed. There was no improvement for my machine. Additionally there is no hint on a fix for the fan behaviour on the download site. |
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Radovan
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Jun 22, 2005 12:37:58 GMT
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To Robert: thanks, i didn't want to test those updates due to the strange behaviour of the page |
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Lasse Andersson
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Jun 28, 2005 04:12:47 GMT
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Andy! I hope you include 80xx in your answer from the 13:th june:
Joe is right. This discussion is for 61xx, 6200, 82xx platforms. |
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Rahul
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Jul 1, 2005 05:07:06 GMT
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I have contacted HP support and their recommnedation was to install the new BIOS update. (f06). I have done that, however it has not fixed the problem at all. I still have a constantly running fan when plugged into AC, irrespective of what I am doing (wp/browsing also bring on the fan) and irrestpective of what the temperature is (the fan comes on as soon as you plug in the power). The laptop runs very hot as well when on AC.
I do hope HP comes up with a solution fast. This laptop is a dream on battery - quiet and cool operation for 4 hours! But on AC, its a different story. HP, please fix ASAP! |
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Bernhard Piazzi
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Jul 2, 2005 05:33:35 GMT
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Hello!!
I've been reading this thread with interest, and want to post my own experiences. I'm using a nx8220 (2 Ghz, x600 64mb ram) and manage the speed and energy consumption with mobilemeter and speedswitch xp. I think you all know mobilemeter, but i didn't find that someone use the speedswitch tool. when i first "installed" the mobilemeter, i wasn't satisfied with the constant 800 mhz, that were showed.
i don't know what speedswitch exaclty does, but i think that it overwrites the winxp profile. it is possible to read the speed directly from the cpu and its variating very much. maybe the informations are not accurate (at this moment it is showing 51 MHz and sometimes decreases to <10 when i do nothing ?!?), but it goes hand in hand with the temperature.
i realized that on ac, the fan is always running, the cpu has 40 degrees, and the second temperature is at 46 degrees.
i have know changed to battery and the fan stops!! the cpu temperature is constant, little bit rising, and the second temperatur decrease to 41°. now sometimes the fan run and stop (while the temperatur is oscillating between 39 and 44°.
the fan needs cooling for 30 - 60 seconds and then the computer run for max. 6 (record *g*) minutes without fan (when i start nothing new, i just type this message for the moment).
i tested out, that the wireless/bluetooth module takes "a lot" of cpu speed, and the notebook runs cooler when it is turned off.
i think that this temperature difference is independent from cpu speed.
is it maybe the graphic card which runs always at full speed when the notebook is plugged in? where exactly is the second temperature measured?
i'm looking forward for the new bios, and want to excuse for my bad english (i don't need it very of |
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Dima
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Jul 4, 2005 00:15:02 GMT
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Hi,
I've recently bought nx8220, and I immediately noticed the fan constantly switching on and off while doing basic tasks (scrolling Windows glossary, opening Windows panels etc). As the fan is approximately twice as loud as the notebook's basic background buzz, it quite stands out in a quite environment and requires a certain getting used to. At first I thought the processor might be overheating on my particular unit, but, as I understood from this thread, HP (thanks to its very helpful unofficial representative in this discussion - Andy Fisher) now recognizes that as an issue for all nx62xx - nx82xx notebooks. Could anyone advice me which options are currently available to me as a very recent owner of nx8220 (couple of days, no documentation has been unsealed yet) in regard to this issue and will there be any fixes forthcoming in a near future (how soon).
I would very much appreciate any response.
Thanks in advance.
Dima. |
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Fred
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Jul 4, 2005 11:04:56 GMT
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Same fan problem on my one week old nc6120 :(
Its a very annoying problem.
My last notebook (Omnibook XT1000) was wonderful. The fan only starts with an CPU charge above 25%.
And now, on my second HP notebook, even with a temperature of 40°C an a CPU charge under 5% the fan doesn't stop turning.
Ok, the notebook is very cool, but I prefer to work in silence!
I don't want to bring back this notebook. The rest is perfekt. And I hope for a fast solution of this problem.
@Andy: Thank you for the help and information. Can you tell us how long we still have to wait for a BIOS update?
Thank |
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Grzegorz Oleszek
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Jul 5, 2005 19:04:08 GMT
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I have a new HP 6110 and same problem with a fan.
Any news about BIOS upgrade ? |
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Andy Fisher
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Jul 6, 2005 10:16:15 GMT
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Time for an update and to set expectations.
The problems as we see it:
1. First trip point for the fan is set too low. Therefore fan off point is also set too low and may not turn off.
2. When running an adaptive power scheme such as Portable/Laptop a speedstep boost forcing the CPU to full performance causes a temperature spike which turns the fan on unnecessarily.
What we changed:
1. We have raised the first tripoint on and off temperatures slightly such that the fan is able to cool the system to a fan off point. Meaning that when idle the fan should turn off.
2. The fan on and off routines have been modified to turn the fan on and off very slowly. This should alleviate the fan coming on due to spikes in temperature caused by speedstep jumps. The fan will start to come on but since the temperature change is only a spike the fan will turn off before it realizes it was supposed to be on.
3. The F10 setup option to enable Fan on all time on AC has been changed to only run the fan at 20% while on AC. This keeps the system cool enough to prevent temperature spikes above the "fan on" trip point while running quieter. This is now defaulted on.
Celeron systems that don't have CPU power management may run the fan frequently although lower speed CPUs run cooler by nature.
nw82xx workstation units obviously run hotter since they have a more powerful video controller, probably more fan activity on these systems also.
Running the CPU full on using an "Always On" power scheme will cause fan activity.
Running on battery hasn't changed much other than the higher tripoints. Our testing shows that the slow fan ramping removes the audio shock of the fan suddenly coming on and turning off.
Our sample of a single outside tester still thought it. This is the compromise with a high performance system that is still thin and light.
Can't give you a timeframe other than we're done in engineering. The rest is up to regression testing and schedules. Releases for 61xx, 62xx and 82xx do not run on the same schedule so releases will be staggered.
Try it, if you don't like it then you've got to do what you've got to do. If you think it's OK or you like it then post praises here, alot of work went into this.
Thanks for all your patience. |
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Lenka
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Jul 6, 2005 15:57:57 GMT
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I wanted to buy HP nc6120 PG825EA. My digital camera had some problem, so they gave me another camera with different serial number but the guarantee didn´t start from the beginning! It was new piece but with guarantee of an old piece! After some time I had the same problem with new piece but the guarantee was already gone!!!
Please tell me if this is normal even in other countries and if this is correct!!! I am from Czech Republic. Thank you, L |
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Andy Fisher
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Jul 6, 2005 17:45:56 GMT
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What does this have to do with this subject?
If you have problems with your camera please post in the correct forum. |
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Simon
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Jul 7, 2005 00:41:35 GMT
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Thx for your efforts Andy.
I wanted to buy a nx6110 but when I came ipon this thread I decided to wait until some final results.
But now I think it's time for some buying ;-) |
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Dima
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Jul 7, 2005 04:41:16 GMT
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Thanks Andy for the effort.
Is it possible to try out a beta version of the new BIOS for nx8220 (with the relevant feedback), as I believe the date of an official release cannot be ascertained at this point even approximately?
Dima |
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Wiktor
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Jul 7, 2005 05:19:16 GMT
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Well I've been using my small, budget laptop for hours a day like a work station. And I must say I took a 180 degrees turn on this. I am no longer bothered by the constant fan activity, in fact I much prefer it to this on/off behavior of my other laptop (7 mins off / 4 mins on). So I guess that for me it was just a matter of getting used to.
It's summer now so the ambient temperature is higher and it causes the fan to run at the second speed all the time. And I'm fine with that too. Occasionally I'm hitting the third trip point - for just a few seconds - if the BIOS update eliminates that, then that's all I want.
I see some people say they like how their laptop works on battery but they find it too noisy when on AC. The simple solution to that is to set the power scheme to max battery even when it's on AC. That way while sacrificing some perfomance (the CPU will be locked at 800MHz), it will run cooler and you will avoid the sudden temperature spikes that have been identified.
So unless the BIOS update causes too much fan speed variation on Celeron machines (if it wasn't tested on them then there is a possibility that the results won't be as good as on a Pentium M), so unless that is the case, I should be happy with the improvements.
I don't think anyone should expect the update to make their laptop totally silent. That's just not possible with this model. HP wants their lapopts to run cool, the cooling solution is only as efficinet as it is (small heatsink, one small fan) and the CPU runs hot. I came to appreciate how cool and stable this laptop is - all that fan work is not wasted after all :) |
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Andy Fisher
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Jul 7, 2005 09:28:13 GMT
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Wiktor, be careful with your recommendations to run the system on "MAX BATT". Yes, on AC the system will run at the lowest speedstep value for that CPU, however, when running on battery, the system will start to use stop clock throttling as the battery discharges, performance will start to get worse as the battery is discharged. |
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Olle M
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Jul 7, 2005 10:42:46 GMT
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Thanks Andy and all you other engineers for your work. Your adjustments sounds good to me and I'm looking forward to test them on my system.
Best regards / Olle |
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Dima
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Jul 11, 2005 02:48:24 GMT
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I am looking forward to them too. But how soon, and is it possible to try out the working test version for nx8220, as it is now available? By the way, as Wiktor recommended, I set power options in Win XP Pro to "MAX BATTERY", but didn't notice any improvement. My BIOS version is 1.13 (the processor is Pentium M 1.86 GHz). I would greatly appreciate any feedback.
Thanks. |
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Michał Jeleń
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Jul 11, 2005 07:35:22 GMT
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I'm waiting for the results too, as my nx6110 is. |
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Michał Jeleń
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Jul 11, 2005 07:38:06 GMT
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I'm waiting for the results too, as my nx6110 is. It's great piece of hardware, even with this little hum its fan produces. RMClock has done well for me lowering the overall temperature, but i'm waiting impatiently for bios upgrade. |
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Marko
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Jul 11, 2005 09:39:05 GMT
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- Michal Jelen
Is it possible that you can explain how you configure RMClock to get lower temperature?
rgs,
Marko |
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Marko
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Jul 11, 2005 09:48:57 GMT
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I am impressed!
Andy, I think you and your team have done a great job and I am waiting for the release of the new BIOS and I think it will help our issues in all cases based on what is installed today.
This is the first time that I seen a large company listen to customers through a forum and that a solution had been done in near future. This give a positive image of a brand and hopefully HP will let this work continue. I wish that HP will pay attention for your work and if not, you should know that you have supporters round the world! |
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Bartosz Beyer
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Jul 11, 2005 10:50:36 GMT
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Thank you yery much Andy for the good news!! I just cannot wait for the update!
Hooray 4 Andy! :)
Hooray 4 Andy`s Support Team! :) |
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Alan
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Jul 11, 2005 16:43:26 GMT
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Actually addressed to Andy Fisher @ HP
Sorry for jumping in here with this but it does relate to the nx61xx series and power/fan management....
How does the new NX6125 AMD-based laptop fare with power /fan issues?
I saw that recently (early july) you mentioned that there was a less than accurate diode or something in the P4 chip which was causing some of the issues raised in this discussion thread and was wondering about the AMD end of the world for heat management.
I won't be buying any Intel-based laptops this year as they aren't 'future-proof' as the AMD-based x86-64 ones are, hence my questions about the NX6125
Also in the same vein, what about the Lance Armstrong L2000 AMD64 series - how do they fare on heat management /fan noise issues?
Thanks for any thoughts/observations. |
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Andy Fisher
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Jul 11, 2005 17:13:55 GMT
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Alan, an excellent question.
While I haven't done alot of testing on this unit, I did look at it for a couple of days.
We have not targetted any changes to the AMD product yet for a couple of reasons:
1. The digital to analog converter for the temperature diode in this unit is different. It allows averaging in hardware so temperature spikes are filtered out in the hardware and no software algorithms are necessary.
2. For some reason they allowed the system to run hotter before the fan kicks in. Much higher trip point, however the maximum (you should never get there) is alot lower.
Caveat: Don't run MobileMeter with a 1 second poll rate. Due to the averaging the temperature cannot be reported correctly if the device in read in < 1 sec intervals. Two seconds is OK. This condition will not occur under normal usage.
I like this system, it's cool (not literally) and the fingerprint reader is 'da bomb! |
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Alan
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Jul 12, 2005 15:31:10 GMT
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Andy,
Thanks for your observations about the nx6125.
Could I ask you a couple other questions about it?
a) What sort of on/off mechanism can be invoked by the user to turn off the glidepad? Does it have a physical on/off switch to turn off the glidepad or a function key to do this? I have several staff who prefer to use an external mouse and find that without an on/off switch of some sort for the glide pad they inevitably wind-up typing in areas of documents they weren't expecting. There's no documentation on this for the nx6125 on-line at the present time.
b) I've been looking at several makes/models of laptops recently, some of which don't have a physical volume control wheel - volume is set via Fn-keys and on several brands the volume setting would not be maintained between boots, ie. set the volume at say 30% of full volume while working with the machine, shut down and reboot and the volume jumps to 100%. This is really irritating. How does a user control the speaker volume on the nx6125? Again no documentation on-line yet.
c) Long-time Toshiba laptop users (like me) are very used to their keyboard layouts and since Toshiba isn't likely to offer AMD processors, perhaps by offering a BTO machine with a Toshiba-style keyboard option will permit you to steal some extra business. I'm making the switch to HP/AMD laptops for investment protection over the next few years rather than waiting for Intel x86-64 laptops.
Thanks for your further thoughts. |
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Rainald
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Jul 12, 2005 15:59:57 GMT
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Alan,
this therad is longwinded enough.
Pls do not further spoil it by questions which do not at all belong to this very specific topic.
You can easily open a new thread and ask your questions ther.
Rainald |
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Clinton Tam
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Jul 12, 2005 16:05:10 GMT
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For question a)
You can turn off the TouchPad completely by the following steps;
1. From the Control Panel, double click at "Mouse".
2. Mouse Properties window pops up, select Device Settings Tab
3. Under the Devices: highlight (or select) Synaptics TouchPad V6.2
4. Select "Disable"
5. Warning Window pops up, select OK.
6. Select Apply and later select OK to exit Mouse Properties.
If you want to change any setting for the TouchPad, do the following;
1. After step 3 above, select Settings
2. This will bring up Properties for Synaptics TouchPad window.
3. Inside this window, you can customize Tapping, Buttons, Virtual Scrolling and etc.
For question b).
For a Full-Featured HP Compaq nx6125, there are three buttons above the f10, f11 & f12 keys for volume control.
Button on top of f10 key is ON/OFF volume control.
Button on top of f11 key is to decrease the volume.
Button on top of f12 key is to increase the volume.
I am not sure how and who will save the current volume setting before system is shut down and able to re-establish the volume as it was before the Shut Down. Conexant AMC Audio driver may not be able to keep the pre-shut down volume setting due to the shut down of the application.
For question c)
Beyond me ....
PS: Should we start a new post for HP Compaq nx6125 |
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cucio
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Jul 12, 2005 17:44:26 GMT
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I have a nc6120 with a 1.6 GHz CPU. Sometimes I would happily trade off CPU speed for silent operation (web browsing, pdf reading...)
I tried to throttle the CPU at 12.5% (equivalent to a 200MHz CPU) with RMClock using ODCM, but this doesn't seem to have an effect on the fan cycles (when the computer is idle, the fan is on for 75 sec and off for 60 sec, approx).
Until the new BIOS is available, does anyone know if it is possible to achieve silent operation, regardless of the impact on CPU speed?
Thanks.
Luis |
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Xavier
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Jul 17, 2005 11:55:10 GMT
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I have bought a new NC6120 few days ago, and I have the same fan problem.
Since I have the possibility to change it for a new one, I would like to know if all the NC6120 have the same problem or only a few ones....
Thanks
Xavier |
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Aldo Pucci
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Jul 20, 2005 04:31:54 GMT
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I'm having same fan problem with Pavillion zv6130us. Was fine first couple of days. Now fan runs constantly.
It has AMD processor. I hope there is a fix for this, or it's going back... |
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Rainald
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Jul 20, 2005 04:52:49 GMT
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Aldo,
as your Pavillion with an AmD CPU is a totally different beset (not only a horse of different colour), it was my suggsetion to ask in the Pavilion section.
Rainald |
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Åsmund Jørgensen
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Jul 21, 2005 03:28:16 GMT
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I also have this problem. Just bought a nc8230 1,86Ghz and the fan is always on level 1.
Called HP support Norway and they said that i just have to live with the problem for now.
Even if my cpu is 42C the fan is on. With my old NC6000 it started at 55C.
I thought this was a "silly" little problem that was easy to fix?
Poor english, i know :) |
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Ajay Kumar
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Jul 21, 2005 15:18:38 GMT
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I've installed software a brand new nc6120 on 20th July 2005. I'm having the same problem, the cpu fan is constantly running. It stops for a brief few seconds (20-30 seconds sometimes) and starts again, irrespective whether I'm starting any application or not. I've checked the cpu usuage against the fan running, the fan runs even if the usuage is mere 2-4 %. I've called the HP support and they say that mine is the first case that they have a record of and told me to ship it back to their service center to repair it. Only if such a forum was not to have existed, I would've believed them. Looks like this model is having an issue with the cpu fan and the HP tech support is not willing to acknowledge it. Hope it gets resolved. The cpu fan whizzing constantly is a bigg irritation. |
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Åsmund Jørgensen
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Jul 21, 2005 15:42:13 GMT
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If your CPU fan is running at full speed the whole time (not level 1), you have a defect fan because one of the wires is damage. If that is the case with your notebook, you have to send it inn. |
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Dima
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Jul 21, 2005 18:32:02 GMT
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Asmund,
I've got a nx8220 1.86 Ghz (similar to nc8230 without a point stick). How do you determine your CPU's fan level and temperature? Mine produces a low level background buzz, which is OK, until after a while the fan starts going on and off - it doesn't sound like level 1 to me, as the jump in noise level is quite abrupt, which is the whole point why it sometimes can be annoying. As I understand, Andy Fisher has come up with a fix, which they are planning to issue as a service release. I kept asking here when and if one could try out the test version. No response so far. This a top level upmarket notebook, which costs a lot of money. Why couldn't they be a little bit more accomodating? Also it might be interesting to know what is the status of this issue officially in HP worldwide. I haven't contacted my local HP support yet, as I doubt I'll learn anything new (or anything at all) that is not already here in this thread.
Regards. |
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Åsmund Jørgensen
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Jul 22, 2005 03:32:16 GMT
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I use the "Centrino Hardware control" program to check the cpu/case/hd temp. I have run some test on my notebook. When i wake it up from Stand-by the fan is off. After 1-2min the fan starts at level 1 and the cpu is 41C, the case is 42C. If i run Prime95 for 10min the cputemp is about 66-70C and the fan is at level 2(or 3?) the level 2 starts at about 55-60C, the casetemp is 45C. When i stop prime95 the temp drops to about 41-42C on the cpu and 44C inside the case. The fanspeed is slowing down to level 1.
I also have a NC6000 with a 1,6Ghz pentium-m so i use this machine as a ref. to the fan level on my nc8230. The NC6000 starts the fan at about 55C and the quickly stops if the cputemp drops under 55C. As Andy Fisher says, the peak level for the cpufan is to sensitive and they have set the temp level to low so its not for the fan to stop.
On the nc6000 the cputemp at idle is 37C and its completely silent. The nc8230 has 41C at fanlevel 1. The nc8230 has a faster CPU/GPU og course:).
I agree that HP has to fix this problem quickly. I bought this computer for school so it have to be more quiet than this. Maybe the coolingsystem is to small? |
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Dario
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Jul 24, 2005 08:38:14 GMT
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Temperature reported by Centrino Hardware Control as "CASE Temp" is actually a GPU temperature on nc8230 (x600 ATI processor). |
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Dima
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Jul 25, 2005 04:56:32 GMT
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GPU or CPU is the same to me - I am not a hardware specialist, and honestly I should not be spending time to learn all those temperature-related technical pecularities. The point is a top level notebook should be as quite as possible, so you don't attract attention in a quiet environment - "Sorry, if I bother you with my on-off buzzing - I just can't help it". There is an issue here, and HP should let us know when we as customers can benefit from its resolution. Actually, Andy said that "our sample of a single outside tester still thought it " but he didn't elaborate what was the problem. Maybe they should try more testers. |
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Peter Guertler
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Jul 25, 2005 12:42:54 GMT
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Looks like Andy came up with something on July 6: "Try it, if you don't like it then you've got to do what you've got to do"
Can't find an updated BIOS for my nc6000 though. Something I overlooked? Would appreciate a pointer to the new BIOS. Thanks a million. |
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Extreme_Boky
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Jul 25, 2005 21:37:11 GMT
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My nc6120 has the same fan problem but I can (just!) learn to live with that. I'll try larger rubber feet - to allow for more air to get in / out, and will check the thermal compound as well and report back! In my opinion, HP did their best on thin design and weight issues, but the cooling system was undersigned and not properly tested. As such, BIOS fix can only mask the problem and make it less irritating, but it will not make it go away...
Some posts refereed to memory upgrade. Is this notebook going to properly recognise DDR2 PC4200 (553MHz) memory? Is there a hidden option to turn on the second memory channel on DDR2, or the BIOS recognises this from the memory? I'd like to upgrade to 1GB in main slot (beneath the keyboard). I asked this question in another memory-related thread, but no answersâ¦
Andy, could you please tell us when to expect the BIOS fix to the fan problem?
Thank you all,
Regards,
Extreme_Boky |
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leks
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Jul 26, 2005 18:19:01 GMT
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Hello.
I've got a nx6110 with CPU Centrino Celeron M 1300 (1024 L2).
Is it OK that its fan works only at speed-2 and speed-3 and never at the lowest speed? It's too noisy I should say... :( I've uploaded the latest BIOS but nothing changed... |
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Martin Hoppen
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Jul 29, 2005 17:03:14 GMT
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I use the nx8220 with Linux. I figured out (see http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?s=4d072e4c37f4a6a09bf132d3137ad42e&t=41927) how to change the trip points in software. So I changed from first point 40C to 55C. That gives me about 2min of silence in change with 30s of fan activity when idle.
But:
(1) the laptop gets uncomfortable warmer, of course!
(2) when on load it "forgets" about the new points while switching from first fan level to second
(3) I don't understand how such a modern system cannot be cooled (to a comfortable temp.) completely passive when idle/surfing/typing - I'm sure there are other manufacturers that are able to do so, aren't there?
So I think the unreleased BIOS update mentioned here will probably do the same (changing the trip points) and it won't make a difference to my experiences: no idle mode with zero (or nearly zero every 10-20min?) fan activity! Am I right with this assumption?
regards
Martin Hoppen |
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Simon
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Jul 30, 2005 04:20:50 GMT
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For NX6110 users it will make a difference but not for the ones with a NX8220 as it gets significantly hotter due to its more powerful GPU.
@(3):
Since the Pentium M Dothan showed up every manufacturer seems to have problems with the heat and AFAIK you won't be able to find a notebook as silent as the one with the predecessor of the Dothan. |
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Edward Polak
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Jul 30, 2005 08:26:55 GMT
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I have an NC6000 since Dec-2004 and I had a different angle on the fan issue: when the laptop wakes up from standby mode with AC power DISconnected, the fan remains on permanently, no matter what temperature, while normally it only turns on occasionally.
This drains the battery quickly: if I leave it like this I have only approx. 1.5 to 2 hours of battery life, instead of the usual 3.5 to 4 hours on average. There is a strange logic involved here, because the fan stops spinning the moment I insert the AC power, even if only for a second. One would expect that the fan would be turned off as much as possible when running on battery.
So eventhough I had a quick workaround for the issue, it didn't seem right and I started googling for clues the other day. In one tech forum people were discussing similar fan issues the above original topic here, mostly related to issues after upgrading to XP SP2 though. One of the suggestions was to remove the HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Services\intelppm key altogether (naturally you export it as a backup before you delete it) and reboot.
I tried that, but it didn't solve my original issue. However, one side-effect was that the fan would keep turning on and off for about 30 seconds, no matter what system load or air temperature coming from the fan. Several people have reported this kind of fan behaviour as their default.
So I re-imported the intelppm key and decided to just try another suggested remedy: backup and delete the HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Services\gv3 key. I'm very pleased to say that since then the fan only rarely turns on and only briefly.
After this, when waking up from standby mode, the fan still turns on indefinitely until I plug in the AC, but I thought many of you might be interested in trying what I did. IMO the fan behaviour has more to do with software drivers than with bios settings. And to the HP engineers that watch this forum, I think there's work to do in the logic department. |
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JosephF
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Jul 30, 2005 13:20:59 GMT
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re: the nc6000, the issue was originally that the fan would -not- turn on after resuming from standby. Their fix the opposite, always have the fan run.
Implementation is at the bios level for this issue. (fixed in F.0E i believe for the nc6000).
Nice suggestions for reinstalling the intel module, that'll reset the cpu scaling, which could possibly address some issues with cpu scaling in certain situations.
But that aside, do understand, this thread is focussing on nc6100 and nc6200 series notebooks, and the issue is (even though some aspects seem similar) completely different :(.
--- |
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Alexander Pozdneyev
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Jul 30, 2005 16:48:09 GMT
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Hello.
I'm using HP Compaq nc6120 (1.73MHz) for a month.
I read this thread twice: before and after buying my nc6120; my opinion - problem is in CPU. It is too hot.
When running simple tasks system's behavior is like the following.
(Temp is measured with CHC)
1. CPU temp is 40C, fan is off
2. Temp is rising up to 45C
3. Fan starts when temp is 45C
4. Temp is decreasing to 40C
5. Fan stops when temp is "quasi" 40C
6. goto item 1
The duration of items 2, 4, 5 differs with different ambient temp.
I disabled as much system services as possible, turned off Wi-Fi, stopped at least all my background programs. CPU usage is "quasi" 0%. But CPU temp is still rising up. My only thought is that CPU is too hot.
May be we should try to decrease the CPU Voltage?
[e.g. with Centrino Hardware Control (CHC)] |
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Edward Polak
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Jul 30, 2005 16:56:33 GMT
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Yes, CPU's are the things that *generate* most of the heat, that's why we have heatsinks and fans.
The qustion here is more: why is the fan on when it doesn't need to be on. |
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Extreme_Boky
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Jul 30, 2005 20:53:14 GMT
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I had the opportunity to check the heat sink compound. I found ample amount and I donât think replacing / adding more of this compound would make any difference. However, increasing the contact surface would make huge difference â the contact area is only 1cm2 and only Intel can make this change. I have added a bit of this compound on 4 screws â but I do not think this helps much.
However, the fan was not perfectly âalignedâ with the heat-exchangerâs fins. I had to remove the little plastic washers from the fan screws (there are 2 screws) to make the fan sit perfectly aligned (horizontally) with the fins. It was sitting just a bit too high allowing some air to escape âunusedâ.
I donât think any BIOS tweaking is going to make any difference. Thereâs a lot of generated heat beneath front area of the laptop â and this doesnât help either.
After âturbo chargingâ the fan / heat sink assembly, the fan never reached 3rd speed. It was âidlingâ at 1st speed most of the time and switching to 2nd speed only while I was pushing the limits with Photoshop, Filter, 3D render applied to 112MB photo file. The processor usage was 100% for good 3-4 min. I tried this 3-4 times in a row and fan never reached 3rd speed. The heat generated was OK â nothing to worry about. The laptop was on AC power with SpeedStep turned OFF in BIOS. Power setting: Portable / Laptop. Processor was running at 1600MHz all the time.
Fan spinning all the time at the lowest speed does not bother me that much. Even 2nd
speed is ok and not too obtrusive. Replacing the fan is 2 min job â in case it goes after year or two. However, I can see how this noise could be the problem in very quiet environment.
I do not suggest to anyone to play with heat sink / fan assembly. The fan wires (there are 3 wires) HAVE to be tucked-away carefully. Otherwise they can be squizzed and damaged with one of the keyboard screws!!!
There was enough of heat sink compound and the whole cooling assembly looked ok. The minor fan misalignment wouldnât make much of the difference anyway!
Best regards,
Extreme_Boky |
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Simon
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Aug 1, 2005 16:31:23 GMT
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I just recognised some very strange behavior with the fan.
I tried Linux on my NX6110 and the fan showed a totally different behavior than under windows.
The fan is off nearly all the time only if you did something with higher load it blows for a few seconds and then goes of again.
Unfortunately I'm not very familiar with linux and have no hardware monitor installed to tell you how the temperatures are but they shoudln't be very different.
Does anybody have an explanation for that?? |
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Edward Polak
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Aug 1, 2005 17:29:49 GMT
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That confirms my belief that it's likely to be a software issue, apart from the limited cooling capacity of the hardware in question. |
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JosephF
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Aug 1, 2005 21:10:57 GMT
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Re: diff behavior in linux.
What are temps when running linux?
What linux kernel?
Do you ahve acpi support compiled in or as a module or neither?
Do you have apm support compiled in or as a module or neither?
Are you running apmd? (if so, and without acpi, this would be why)
Are you running acpid? (if so, which version? if you don't have acpi support compiled into your kernel, this would be why).
Are you running Novell/Suse's Powersaved? (if suse 9.1 or higher or NLD or SLD, likely yes. if so, it may keep your cpu clocked at it's lowest state).
Are you running the cpufreq daemon? (same as above)
Did you compile for i686, Pentium M, or Pentium 4 into the kernel? (has to due with heat generation and throttling paramaters).
Do you have some other means of speedstep enabled other than any of the above?
If you installed one of various previous-gen linux distros, you might find the Acpi implementation to not be fully functional...In fact, it might not recognize trip-poitns set in the DSDT. If that's the case, irregular fan behavior would be a given (And higher system temps would coincide with that).
Other than that, what thermal zones does the Linux OS detect from the Bios?
If you're not using ACPI, you might not see any. If using ACPI, pease report what thermal zones are listed in proc.
I'd be willing to bet there's a logical explanation for it :) Andy from HP said it's a bios issue, thus if someone from HP that's testing it etc. says it's a bios issue, I would be inclined to stick with that approach.
--- |
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Extreme_Boky
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Aug 1, 2005 21:33:06 GMT
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I'll second that.
Other Linux users reported the same fan behaviour. Fan works and performs according to CPU temperature in less erratic way. So, it may not be the BIOS issue. It appears now that registry has something to do with fan behaviour under Win XP SP2.
Things look okay from fan, heatsink, heatsink compound point of view.
We have done our bit and investigated the fan problem quite extensively. Some played with software setting, some of us checked the hardware and we all reported back to this thread.
I think it would be nice at this stage to hear from HP again.
Regards,
Extreme_Boky |
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Simon
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Aug 2, 2005 04:57:47 GMT
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Joe:
I'm using Suse 9.3 as according to some tests it fully supports everything important on my notebook from scratch (like ACPI and so on).
I'll try to get some monitoring programm to work to report the current temps. |
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Extreme_Boky
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Aug 2, 2005 07:53:28 GMT
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This afternoon I lifted up the keyboard to monitor the temperature of the CPU heatsink, and used my 6120 for about 30min with usual load like e net bowsing, opened some folders, nothing demanding at all. The heasink right above the CPU never got hotter than around 30 deg C. It was mildly warm to touch. In fact, the conventionally cooled motherboard chipset heatsink got much hotter than CPU heatsink?? However, the CPU fan was on most of the time. I must add that the fan and cooling / heatsink system do their job very well. So, I take back my prematurely defined opinion of under designed cooling system in this laptop. In fact, the heatsink and fan cool the CPU very quickly and efficiently.
I thought I should share this experience with others.
So, we are back to cooling algorithms and look-up tables.
Extreme_Boky |
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Simon
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Aug 4, 2005 03:41:55 GMT
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Ok, now I've been able to monitor the temps under linux and the results are very interesting.
As the fan is off nearly all the time the average idle temps are between 53 and 55°C and the notebook doesn't get uncomfortable warm.
The fan starts above 60° and stopps when 60° are reached again.
Zhis is a behavior I'd like to see under windows. |
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JosephF
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Aug 4, 2005 11:10:06 GMT
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@Simon: Notice though that the idle temps are 10-13(C) higher than in windows though? I'll have to look into the history of cpufreqd and see what they're rating their preformance/heat ratio at vs. windowsXP throttling etc.
To me it sounds like the Linux OS acpi daemon isn't receiving all of the thermal zone data from the bios.
check in proc/acpi..which thermal zones are listed?
Then run Windows and use an app like MobileMeter if you want (or sisoft shows them too i believe). Which thermal zones do you see listed there and inside each, which temperatures do you see defined?
Since you're running SuSE, you -might- be able to grab the thermal properties via the powersaved daemon, but I'm not certain of that, so I'd just go straight through /proc/acpi and check out the thermal zone data manually.
--- |
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Simon
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Aug 5, 2005 03:20:15 GMT
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In /proc/acpi it has the same three thermal zones than under windows, the cpu, case and a dummy.
The temperature for the hd is missing but I think this doesn't matter. |
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Wolfgang Otto
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Aug 5, 2005 03:28:05 GMT
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4 month now and no solution from HP !
Last week we got a new 6120 from our distributor. Although it has the same bios (1.10)the fan is NOT always on.
I stressed the two machines. The newer machine reports 15 degress (centigrade) less than my "old" one !!
Obviousely HP changed something inside.
Concerning battery-life: both are bad - not more than 2,5 hours doing nearly nothing
I´ll send my notebook back to get it repaired or to get a new one. |
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JosephF
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Aug 6, 2005 01:01:05 GMT
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to Simon:
What are the trip points listed for the fan in the 3 thermal zones in linux? (plz specify which temps are in which zone, thnx).
To Wolfgang Otto:
Perhaps there is a motherboard revision difference...haven't heard anything from hp-support or in any business newsletters though, definately curious though....
Keep us posted on what you end up finding out or if you get it resolved on the older system somehow!
--- |
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Simon
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Aug 7, 2005 04:23:41 GMT
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Very curious, I took a look in the trip__point file and the points are the same as under windows and this time the fan showed the same behaviour like in win.
No idea why the trip-points change sometimes. |
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Amos
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Aug 8, 2005 17:14:31 GMT
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this is more directly to " ". i've tried to locate the gv3 key in the registry but I could not find it. My NC6000 fan noise goes on and off as well when running small programs like internet explorer. Just to make sure, all you have to do is type regedit.exe and then select all the folders then I should find it correct? |
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Edward Polak
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Aug 8, 2005 18:10:24 GMT
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Editing the registry can render your system unusable if you do not know what you're doing. This procedure only applies to Windows XP ServicePack2. Consider yourself warned from this point on, you may choose to proceed at your own risk. If you run regedit.exe, expand the subsequent "folders" HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\Services. If there's a key named gv3 there, you can export it first as a backup, then delete it and reboot. If the gv3 key is not there, you won't need to delete it obviously.
Better yet, read this: http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx/kb/888399/?sd=RMVP |
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Endogin
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Aug 8, 2005 22:51:11 GMT
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I saw the registry entries in my nx6120. There are no gv3 folder or key. I believe that it will not help us with this issue.
Andy Fischer, do you have any news?
Do you in HP-Compaq change the nx/nc6120 motherboard or fan in new machines?
Do you believe that we have to change our older machine by a new one?
Thank you. |
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Marko
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Aug 13, 2005 11:52:13 GMT
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Two questions to Andy or other HP developers
- with reference to Wolfgang Otto, 5 aug
Is it true that HP has done some inside changes to 6120, 8220 etc?
If there are new soultions => what solutions?
If new solutions => how can I get the new changes to my older (4 months, nx8220) laptops?
- how is it going with the new BIOS?
I know it is summer holidays in parts of europe but maybe someone can answer in HP round the world.
I hope that HP will be strightforward when replying to my questions. |
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Radovan
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Aug 15, 2005 14:49:30 GMT
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Rainald
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Aug 15, 2005 15:32:00 GMT
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Robert
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Aug 15, 2005 15:41:42 GMT
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Amos
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Aug 15, 2005 22:47:57 GMT
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Hi I have been recently been surfing the net on finding out ways to lower the temperature on the CPU which will keep the fan from running constantly. Although I have an nc6000, my fan has been either constantly running or turning on and off at an annoying rate. The great news is that I have found a solution! You might want to check out this site:
http://www.notebookforums.com/showthread.php?t=70943&highlight=undervolt
Basically what you are going to do is "undervolt" your computer which means that the cpu and motherboard will generate much less heat. Therefore the lower temperature will keep the fan from having to run constantly in the first place. The original temperature of my cpu use to average around 55-60 degrees. However after the undervolt it runs around 40-45 degrees. I am pleased to say that after undervolting my computer, the fan never turns on when doing simple tasks like opening internet explorer or other small applications. Please reply if you get the same results! |
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grayson
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Aug 16, 2005 03:41:56 GMT
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had a quick glance ; correct me if I am wrong , but it seems that if you turn the processor down so that it runs at P3 speeds , this stops the heat problems.
years ago I had a 7 litre cadillac test car ;if you ran it at 70 mph for 10 minutes the head gaskets blew ; so was not going over 60 a solution ?
not in my book!
grayson |
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Amos
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Aug 16, 2005 14:04:26 GMT
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Just want to clear things up, you're not necessarily "slowing" down the processor. There will be absolutely no change in performance. The only thing changed is the power supplied to the cpu. It will still be having the same clock speed. Its just that when the chips were tested in the factory, they were all tested at a "set" voltage and then distributed. In our case, (and in most cases) the voltage is actually set a little higher than what we actually need. Thats why after undervolting, you can use the other program suggested which is Prime95 to do a stress test for several hours to see if the cpu still holds up.
amos |
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Peter Walgemoed
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Aug 16, 2005 14:29:33 GMT
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I would be very interested what HP's view is on this under voltage solution. It sounds to good be true. I can imagine it can never become a HP supported solution, because it is based on the limits of the production process and can not be applied generally. Contrary to overclocking or over-voltage I can not imagine that there are any risks limiting the lifetime of the components. If it goes below a threshold value the system will not work or become unstable. If I am correct the setting can be such that it only works for a battery/no noise setting. For the AC mode it runs normal. What is HP's view on this?
Peter |
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Amos
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Aug 17, 2005 03:53:33 GMT
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From what I have read. There is absolutely no risks involved with undervolting. True if you undervolt too much then the system becomes stable. However the software (RMCLOCK) is basically what controls the voltage, therefore if the voltage were to be unstable it would generally reset back to the original settings upon rebooting. When I first saw this I wondered if undervolting would go against my warranty. However after looking around for sometime, since it is only a software application rather than a bios or a hardware change, your warranty would still most likely be valid. I think though and what I have read, undervolting is harmless to your computer. |
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Tamas Cseh
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Aug 17, 2005 17:09:22 GMT
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Amos,
thank you for the link.
I have a nc6000 1.6 and a nc4010 1.7.
I installed RMClock and lowered the voltage and the result is fantastic. It really works, altough the nc4010 with the 1.7 processor is significantly warmer than the 1.6
Tom
p.s.: Any remarks from HP? |
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Radovan
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Aug 18, 2005 06:59:57 GMT
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To Amos: nice post, but I'm afraid it doesn't work for celeron owners, because we can't check the box "Use P-State Transitions (PST)" and therefore complete the whole process :-( any advice ? |
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Extreme_Boky
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Aug 18, 2005 07:46:21 GMT
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I have noticed that voltage varies with the frequency. Speed Step increases the voltage to support higher operating frequencies. With 0.09 um processor technology I have 1V at 800MHz and around 1.35V at 1.6GHz full speed. During processor intensive application executions, the speed goes to 1.6GHz and stays there while it is needed. As soon as the calculations have ended, the speed goes down to 800MHz and sometimes to 400MHz.
Starving the processor of voltage will make it impossible to run the laptop reliably at nominal speeds.
I have further monitored the fan speeds, temperatures and voltages. The more I look the more I like it. Fan keeps things cool at around 40-50 degrees C. I also have full processor speed only when I need it. The only problem in my opinion is the fan going crazy when the processor starts calculations - the temperature spike.
Regarding fan current, I can report that it is extremely low. Probably in rage of 30 to 60 mA when the fan spins in first gear. The effect on the battery life is absolutely negligible. The max fan current is 170mA.
Much better savings can be made if the LCD brightness goes down couple of levels. This makes HUGE differences - around 2W or more. This corresponds to around 150 to 200mA and this is A LOT. So, if you are after longer battery life, turn the brightness down if you can. And turn the screen off whenever you do not need it.
Slightly off the topic, but not too much I hope.
Extreme_Boky |
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Edward Polak
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Aug 18, 2005 07:57:44 GMT
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I don't agree with the fan having no impact on battery life, or perhaps it coincides with a high CPU speed, because when my nc6000 wakes up from standby, the fan is on and remains on until the battery is drained, which happens in 1.5 to 2 hours, whereas normally I get upto 3.5 to 4 hours of battery life. So either it's the fan or it's both the fan and the CPU draining the battery 2 to 3 times faster than normal. |
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cucio
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Aug 20, 2005 05:40:51 GMT
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Undervolting the CPU helps the Pentium M 730 in my nc6120 to stay cooler and reduces the time the fan is on.
You can do it with Centrino Hardware Control
http://www.pbus-167.com/
You will have to experiment with the "CPU Voltage" tab. For me a voltage of 0.7 V for the 6x multiplier works nicely. Be aware that undervolting your CPU _might_ lead to stability problem in your system.
Anyway, I think that a BIOS that allowed having the fan at the minimum rpm necessary to stay within the safe temperature range in an adaptive (i.e., less temp, less rpm) way would be very welcome, to avoid the on/off acoustic perception. |
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Edward Polak
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Aug 21, 2005 14:38:14 GMT
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Using the undervolt tutorial, I think I have my NC6000 Banias stable at 0.748V Minimal and 1.196V, which is not as low as the Dothans will go, but a lot less than the original 0.908V / 1.484V.
Now let's see what that does to my fan and touchpad blues, which in my opnion are related (touchpad getting too hot and behaving erratically). So far, the touchpad is no longer misbehaving. My guess is that the wakeup-from-standby fan-issue will not improve because it's likely an "undocumented feature". Maybe it's me, but I prefer standby/wakeup over shutdown/boot.
By the way, has anyone ever wondered why, since this is a laptop, the fan is located exactly where your leg would be, blocking it when used on your lap? :S |
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Radovan
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Aug 22, 2005 04:06:05 GMT
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Hello,
does anybody know how could i lower voltage on celeron? nothing mentioned above works for me :-(
Thanks for any help |
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Simon
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Aug 22, 2005 04:18:47 GMT
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The Celeron M doesn't support undervolting. |
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grayson
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Aug 22, 2005 04:39:24 GMT
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edward , haven't you noticed? no one makes laptops anymore ; they now make NOTEBOOKS , and don't try putting it on your lap unless you want to get burned
and I wanted to make post 300
grayson |
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Endogin
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Aug 22, 2005 12:00:43 GMT
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Hey man, does someone undervolted a nx6120 pentium m 740?
Andy, do you still working on HP, and on this issue? |
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Endogin
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Aug 22, 2005 12:10:17 GMT
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The last message from Andy Fisher was in Jul 11, 2005 21:13:55 GMT. Ther HP put an another BIOS release (FA) and nothing changes in my notebook. What is going on? |
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Fred
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Aug 22, 2005 13:53:34 GMT
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I found a solution for a silent notebook (nc6120).
I noticed that there is too much heat-conductive paste between the cpu and the cooler. So I removed it and put a fine layer of my own paste on the die.
In any case, this was the problem for my notebook. Now, the fan don't turns with a CPU load beneath 7% and peaks of the CPU load don't let go crazy the fan.
It really makes sense, if you consider that the new series of the nc6120 don't have this fan problem and the BIOS is the same. Thanks to Wolfgang Otto for the post (Aug 5, 2005 07:28:05 GMT).
The disadvantage is that you might loose the warranty if you damage the notebook by opening and changing the heat-conductive paste. But if you want to do it, I've written a little tutorial:
http://frederic.cybton.com/solutions/0508hpfanissue/index.htm
Good luck.
Fred (who is a bit disappointed from HP) |
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Edward Polak
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Aug 22, 2005 16:58:29 GMT
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Now /that's/ a cool solution 8) |
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Rainald
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Aug 22, 2005 19:07:15 GMT
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I would say "cooling" solution <bg,d&r>
Rainald |
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sander_h
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Aug 23, 2005 03:46:51 GMT
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On my nc6120 with Intel M740 I installed Centrino Hardware Control (See a couple of posts above this one). But the option to set temps on the activation of the fan is greyed out. Is it not possible to influence the speed of the fan on the nc6120? |
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Fred
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Aug 23, 2005 06:54:04 GMT
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It's the same problem for me. I can't change the fan speed on my nc6120 (Intel M750) :(
I think this feature must be allowed by the BIOS. |
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Kelly
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Aug 23, 2005 17:27:32 GMT
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My experience with the nc6120 fan issue:
I have a one month old nc6120 with a 1.73G P745 and 512MB of 333MHz RAM. I did alot of testing and research and found this:
1. I updated to BIOS F.0A; No noticable results.
2. I installed RMclock and configured the following undervoltage pairs: 6x,0.700V and 13x,1.068V. This knocked the max full load temp at 13x from 75 to 59 deg. C. My idle temp dropped from 47 to 44 deg. C.
3. I followed Fred's advice and replaced the big blobs of thermal goo with small dabs of Arctic Silver paste. I also alligned the fan with the heatsink to reduce the airgap between them. Max full load temp at 13x went from 59 to 54 deg. C. My idle temp dropped from 44 to 41 deg. C. Thanks Fred! This mod seems to make the temperature jumps during load variations less extreme, as Fred had already concluded.
Note 1: I tortured the notebook for many hours with Prime95 to test its stabilty at the seemingly extreme low voltages. It never once crashed on me once (after 2 weeks of heavy use).
Note 2: The fan is still almost always on, and always has been even while the OS was idling. It doesn't jojo on and of though and it runs at it's lowest speed.
Note 3: Blocking the air intake (on the bottom left) with for example your leg, will increase the temperature by 5 to 10 deg. C.
My opinion 1: Unless HP comes up with a BIOS with different or user adjustable thresholds, this is as good as it gets.
My opinion 2: This is a very light and powerful notebook worth every penny. Under low loads, the noise is but a whisper. Under higher loads the noise is acceptable.
Thanks to all of you for your wonderful ideas and feedback in general. |
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Rainald
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Aug 23, 2005 18:52:55 GMT
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Kelly,
thanks for your comprehensive report.
>> My opinion 2: This is a very light and powerful notebook worth every penny. Under low loads, the noise is but a whisper. Under higher loads the noise is acceptable. <<
I take the liberty to disagree:
The noise appearing in so far for me is a true NoNo.
I for one will stay with my "outdated" M700 and n600c.
They both are "strong" enough to do the work that has to be done on them. And they both are absolutely silent.
I was up to push a "new" (contemporary) notebook into the budget.
It would have been agreed upon.
But I simply cannot say which succeding model I might really *need* and - OTH - be able to work with (for sure not with these "fan-always-on models).
Rainald |
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Andy Fisher
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Aug 23, 2005 21:22:57 GMT
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Hey Guys/Gals, sorry I haven't posted in a while, but I have been reading your posts.
I really can't comment on some of your tactics to reduce the fan usage other than to say we need to hire you :). We could save millions of dollars in all the testing and thermal profiling that we do to get these settings correct.
Obviously modifying chipset settings is not recommended and I'm not sure that they even survive a speedstep transition since those settings are modified by the OS every time it switches speeds.
Onto the "I've got good news and bad news" part of the post.
The good news. The code that we worked on a couple of months ago for 82xx and 61xx Intel system BIOS hit the test group recently.
The bad news. I had to pull it back. It's not doing what it's supposed to do. I'll be working to get this corrected over the next couple of days.
I want to appreciate the posts of people who understand that small and light means more heat and a more aggressive cooling scheme is required with higher powered systems. Also the sheer size of this thread has helped me to escalate your concerns and address those issues.
Referring back to my previous post, there is no "fix" to this issue because there is no "problem" with excess heat in the system. The cooling system works as designed and BTW no changes have been made to more recently shipped systems.
I'm not in a position to promise timeframes but you are not forgotten. |
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Maciek
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Aug 24, 2005 14:44:53 GMT
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Hey,
I'am working in reseller company in Poland and we've got that problem with one of our client's NC6120 (PG822EA). We selling all the time NC6120 and I confirm Fred's opinion that the new series of the NC6120 haven't got this problem. Fun is on only sometimes and the battery can work up to 4 hours!
Now, I'm speeking with HP service, because they can't find what is wrong. They changed main board two times and now I'm waiting for new processor. I think, that it can be good trace. I'll write to you all what is realy wrong with the first series of these NC6120, when my client's problem will be resolve.
Maciek |
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Maciej Kujawa
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Aug 24, 2005 16:32:40 GMT
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Hello
Question to Andy. I have a 2 months old nx8220 with the same problem of course. Now - what would you say to the fact that my model (PM760 2GHz,PG804EA) is no longer available and the new one (PY517EA) has exactly the same specs. HP changed something in hardware - that's for sure. |
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Edward Polak
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Aug 24, 2005 18:56:54 GMT
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Andy, reading some of the posts here it seems that part of the issue is software (e.g. XP SP2). Some of it is hardware (e.g. cooling paste). Reading the notebookforums, high temps and crazy fans are common phenomena not unique to HP, but at least HP is becoming aware now. HP could turn this thing into a key selling point if the correct Intel powermanagement drivers were in use, if the cooling paste were optimally applied and if the undervolting procedure were pre-applied. Marketing could call this feature OptiVolted or some such silly phrase.
It would mean a little more work, but it would also mean happy campers accross the board.
How 'bout it? |
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Simon
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Aug 25, 2005 05:02:27 GMT
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@ Andy
I have a suggestion how to solve the problem. As mentioned above I had once a curious problem under linux where the first trip point was set somehow to 60°.
Working with this setting was very pleasant. Most of the time with cpu being idle the temps were at 55° and only sometimes they went above 60° with the fan jumping in for only a few seconds.
Of course the case became warmer than under normal behaviour but only slightly.
Would it be possible to integrate an option into the BIOS were you could select which behaviour you prefer? E.g. I think at the notebooks from Samsung were you have the option to disable the fan completely by pressing FN+F10. Something similiar would be really great. |
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JosephF
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Aug 27, 2005 20:31:34 GMT
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Quote:
---
Would it be possible to integrate an option into the BIOS were you could select which behaviour you prefer? E.g. I think at the notebooks from Samsung were you have the option to disable the fan completely by pressing FN+F10. Something similiar would be really great.
---
Completely disabling the fan = not good practice for obvious reasons (internal damage due to heat etc) however I totally agree with the idea of selecting a "profile setting" in the bios. I.E. quiet mode, performance mode, and "normal".
Performance = fan always on. Quiet = higher trip points. Normal = normal trip points (however obviously normal needs to be slightly adjusted above current trip points, at least in my opinion :)). |
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Ondrej Muller
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Aug 30, 2005 05:28:30 GMT
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Hi there,
I'm just another unsatisfied owner of the nx6110 notebook (Celeron 1.3GHz). Nothing new to say - fan always ON, even at idle, but temperature around 45-50 deg. As a result - low battery time (2h or less). That's a pity because of this notebook is very good in its category, indeed.
If there is something to help, please let us know.
Thanks for your help. |
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Extreme_Boky
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Aug 30, 2005 07:36:24 GMT
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Just to let other users know on further progress with keeping the temperature down.
1. I have tried different thermal compounds; the best so far is ArticSilver5 High Density Silver Thermal Compound. It should be applied reasonably thin on heat sink and horizontal areas of the chipset and microprocessor. However, it should also be applied AROUND these areas in larger amounts because the whole shiny mirror-like squares dissipate the heat - not just the top horizontal area. The idea is to have very thin amount between heat sink and horizontal area trying to have metal on chip contact if possible, but also to try to collect the heat from vertical sides of these little chips as well.
2. I installed Centrino Hardware Control 1.9 beta 02 application, but have tried ALL others mentioned here as well. CHC V1.9b02 works really well and is the only one that reads CPU load properly - therefore it is the only one that dynamically tracks the CPU demand properly. I have 0.7V at multiplier 6 and 1.1V at multiplier 12. The other multipliers are scaled accordingly. This works VERY WELL and I am surprised that system stability is excellent with such a low voltage. The best of all, temperatures are down and it is finally possible to keep the fan OFF when in max. battery, i.e. when locked at multiplier 6 (800MHz) at 0.7V. The fan is OFF almost all the time. When running of the mains power, I have dynamically adjustable multipliers and voltages according to the CPU load and I run CPU at multiplier 12 (1600MHZ) at 1.1V most of the time, i.e. above 20% CPU load. The fan comes ON when 45 degrees gets reached, but cools down the system to below 40 degrees pretty quick. There is one thing that helps a lot - lifting the laptop of the table helps a fair bit. The air intake opening is pretty small, and lifting the laptop 5 cm of the table helps fan cooling the CPU a lot. I have monitored the cooling process with the keyboard removed - this helps fan to cool the CPU 3 to 4 times quicker. I am not sure if such a small opening was designed on purpose. Maybe this is done to allow for an air flow between the keyboard and chipset to cool down the otherwise passively cooled chipset heat sink? I am not sure. However, lifting the laptop helps a lot in reaching below 40 degrees level, thus shutting the fan OFF.
I used other laptops a lot and they all spin their fans occasionally, but NONE of them had this much problems in cooling the system down to a point where the fan turns OFF.
With careful heat sink compound selection and application, careful fan alignment and CHC I managed to keep the fan OFF almost always when running off the battery with MAX.BATTERY selected in CHC. However, lifting the laptop of the desk is the only way to reach below 40 degrees level when utilising full potential (1600MHz) of this machine when needed. The fan opening on the underside is just too small. Maybe this was done to help cool down the motherboard chipset by controlling the air flow, but I doubt.
Extreme_Boky |
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Ondrej Muller
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Aug 30, 2005 12:40:55 GMT
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Playing with the voltage & frequence is fine in the Pentium M case, but unfortunatelly the Celeron M has not the SpeedStep technology activated (anyway I doubt that it is not there too, it is probably blocked off only, but meanwhile there is no info how to hack it ;-)), so that way is not a solution for any of the Celeron M notebooks users. RIP |
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Ralf Mimoun
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Aug 31, 2005 18:15:33 GMT
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Hello,
I just got my nx8220 and have to live with the cooler going on and off every 10 seconds or so (or it's running all the time when it's a little bit warmer), I have read this thread with much interest.
Andy, thank you for your support. I am sure that you and your colleagues will find a way to realise a less disturing colling pattern. I have a great machine in front of me, and it's a miracle that it can be cooled with such a small cooler. But I'd be glad if it's even less annoying :-) |
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Ralf Mimoun
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Aug 31, 2005 18:16:15 GMT
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Hello,
I just got my nx8220 and have to live with the cooler going on and off every 10 seconds or so (or it's running all the time when it's a little bit warmer), so I have read this thread with much interest.
Andy, thank you very much for your support. I am sure that you and your colleagues will find a way to realise a less disturbing cooling pattern. I have a great machine in front of me, and it's a miracle that it can be cooled with such a small cooler. But I'd be glad if it's even less annoying :-) |
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Nick Hanlon
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Sep 1, 2005 20:08:33 GMT
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I'm thinking of getting one of the laptops in question, can anyone tell me (andy?) whether or not that if I buy one now will I have to send it back to HP to resolve the fan issue or will I just be able to install a software/BIOS update?
It sounds like a great laptop appart from this and if it's likely to be resolved (made less annoying) in the near future through a software update then I might as well go ahead and buy one.
Thanks,
Nick.
p.s. Which would you go for? the "NX6125 AMD64 ML28 (PY418ET)" or the "nx6110 P-M 740 (PT604ET)", which is faster? |
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Peter Walgemoed
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Sep 1, 2005 20:45:29 GMT
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I installed Centrino Hardware Control on my NC6220. It is running much cooler now (average around 43 degrees, max 52 with normal work). My settings are 0,716 Volt and 1,1 Volt. Is it normal that speedstep switches between 2 frequencies (800 and 1733 Mhz in my case)? The fan is constantly on at it lowest speed, but you can hardly hear it. The noise is less than the harddisk of my previous Toshiba. So until now I am very satisfied and can advice others to also use this program. Thanks to everybody for the advice.
Peter |
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Tomasz T.
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Sep 4, 2005 08:24:24 GMT
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I have problem with my nx6110. FAN is ALWAYS ON. I hate this noise. Help |
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Maciej Kujawa
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Sep 4, 2005 19:28:18 GMT
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nx8220.
Apart from the fan problem which still exists I must report that for me the BIOS F.0E update results in WiFi disconnecting for a few seconds (blue LED's go off and on) so back to F.0A and all is working again. Maybe Andy could look at that. |
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byter
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Sep 5, 2005 03:58:45 GMT
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"@ Wolfgang Otto
Aug 5, 2005 07:28:05 GMT unassigned
4 month now and no solution from HP !
Last week we got a new 6120 from our distributor. Although it has the same bios (1.10)the fan is NOT always on.
I stressed the two machines. The newer machine reports 15 degress (centigrade) less than my "old" one !!
Obviousely HP changed something inside.
Concerning battery-life: both are bad - not more than 2,5 hours doing nearly nothing
Iôll send my notebook back to get it repaired or to get a new one."
Wolfgang what is the model number for nc6120 that you have ? I am planning to purchase this:
HP Compaq nc6120 Intel Pentium M 750 1.86GHz / 15 TFT / 512MB SDRAM / 80GB HDD / DVD+/-RW / XP Pro / Notebook PC
Manufacturer: HP Manufacturer Part Number: PG825ET#ABU
since it has many features that I need. However I am worried now about this problem.
HP take note...these negative feelings may cause other people like me to not make a purchase - Also NO fix in over two months is another addition |
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Extreme_Boky
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Sep 6, 2005 02:22:29 GMT
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That's very interesting - the new 6120 reports 15 deg C less than new one.
Any further comments on this from HP? Andy recons nothing's changed...???? How is this possible if the new machine reports 15 deg less? And thatâs a lot!
The battery life depends vastly on LCD brightness. Reducing the brightness will prolong the battery life to more than 3 hours no problems.
Extreme_Boky |
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Thomas Sebastian
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Sep 8, 2005 13:23:27 GMT
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Hello, I have the same problem with NX6110 The fan is blowing all the time whether the laptop is in battery or not.
This is really annoying especially when i give presentation to my clients. I switched from Acer to HP. My last Acer was loyal to me for 3 years. But NX 6110 doesnt seem to be loyal to me for even 3 days.
Anyone know how I can atleast reduce the sound of fan. Funny thing is that there is not much heat coming out of the system.
Cheers
Thomas |
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Nick Hanlon
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Sep 8, 2005 14:13:43 GMT
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I purchased an nx6125 (PY418ET). It's a good laptop and no fan problem it seems. I've only used it on mains power so far and the fan stays constantly on at a barely audible ow speed. The only time I've heard it rev up to noisy full speed is when I was running some benchmark software and it didn't come on for long. It doesn't produce much heat either, but it's only got an AMD ML-28 in it.
I would have said it's a great laptop but there's seems to be an intermittant problem with the finger print scanner on mine. |
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Edward Polak
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Sep 12, 2005 15:22:52 GMT
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Holy cow! I learned something new about my laptop today. Every laptop is not the same, even if they are the same model. My NC6000 was giving me electric shocks when connected to AC and sitting outside, so I brought it in for repair. My harddisk was transferred to another NC6000, so I basically have the same undervolted system, same settings, just a different case. Guess what?
This replacement stays cooler, the touchpad doesn't go mad, the fan doesn't go on hardly at all and the battery life is incredible: roughly 5 hours instead of my usual ~3 hours. I want to keep the replacement! |
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Edward Polak
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Sep 12, 2005 15:26:16 GMT
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Sorry about the double post, I recieved a server error the first time.
************************************************************************
PS: The duplicate post has been deleted - Forum Moderator |
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Shahid Sheikh
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Sep 12, 2005 21:09:46 GMT
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I just read thru this whole thread and all I can say is wow!
I guess this explains why there are so many nc6120s being sold as refurbs. I will still probably buy one refurbished because the price on them is very reasonable.
Currently have a presario 2800T (1.9 Ghz P4m, 768MB, 1600x1200) and very happy with it. |
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James Plaistere
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Sep 13, 2005 17:54:01 GMT
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Hi Guys,
Seems you think the Compaq nc6120 is a bit of a bad egg? I can say honestly its a decent business laptop, I got mine from work and was well chuffed! On to the fan issue, maybe it's a bios issue, I say this due to the fact there is a setting which can specify to leave the fan 'always on' when on ac. It may also be due to the fact so many services and processes come pre-installed out of the box?
I disabled most with msconfig and services.msc if you're not going to use bluetooth or wireless turn the services off etc.
TBH IMHO even when the fan is humm-dinging gale force it's nowhere near as loud as my hp ze5400, the nc6120 I have is extremely quiet.
Also people who found this post without this issue don't let it put you off, it seems a small amount of have had this problem and it seems to have been unofficially fixed. My unit was new (Sept 09) and is not affected.
Hope this helps,
James. |
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Shahid Sheikh
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Sep 14, 2005 00:20:06 GMT
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I guess this is a question more for Andy than anyone else. Is it possible that its a certain batch of processors HP used in these machines that is the culprit? |
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Jan Barth
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Sep 14, 2005 12:04:54 GMT
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hello
I have followed this thread with interest for a few weeks now. I have the same problem on my nx8220 machine with the 2 GHz CPU and 1 GB RAM.
I am studying Mathematics / Information Technology in Germany and therefore wish my notebook to run at the best possible efficiency. This includes the noise generated to be very low while browsing or similar low-CPU activities.
Many of you have posted mobile meter statistics and other helpful resources that I compared to the ones I made myself and I can generally agree with the values.
First of all let sahre with you some experience I have had with the nx8220.
The CPU is now undervolted at 0.7V and runs at 800 MHz Minimum Frequency. The ATI X600 graphics card is also clocked down (Powerplay). The CPU temperature now usually cycles from 39 to 45 degrees in idle mode, but after keeping the notebook running for a few hours the temperature stays at exactly 40°C all the time. And mind you, the fan is working -- always.
I have made contact with the German HP Support asking them advise, but they could not help me at all. They told me it wasn't up to them to work with the BIOS and Thermal Settings, but that this is subject to the engineers in Houston.
Well, since I read this post, I am also glad I can finally talk to Andy, to which this mesasge is more or less addressed.
Andy, I would like to ask you some more questions regarding the BIOS you were working on a while ago. You reported it was in testing, yet you had to pull it back since it wasn't doing what it was supposed to do. Now could you enlighten me about the problems you are facing and whether or not there is a beta version of that BIOS that could be tested by some of us here (responsibility with us of course). I ask this of you since nobody here in my country can help me with this issue. Increasing the CPU-Starting point to 50°C and lowering the CPU-Disable point to 45°C will most likely solve my problem since the CPU would now be able to be cooled down below the 40°C mark which right now does not happen too often -- and the temperature here in Germany isn't particularly hot, in fact its only about 20°C in this room.
If you need any more information or details please don't hesitate to ask, I will be glad to support your efforts.
Hopefully a fix will be available soon,
Jan Barth |
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Andy Fisher
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Sep 15, 2005 11:33:25 GMT
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Finally the 82xx BIOS with the changes I specified along way up in this thread has been released.
Look for it to hit the web soon. The 61xx Intel systems should follow shortly.
A brief summary of the changes again:
1. First fan trip point increased to 50 degrees, turns off at 45 degrees.
2. When on AC the fan always on setting in F10 will keep the fan running at 20% which is quieter than the hard drive noise. This setting is recommended on AC since it keeps the system well below the first fan trip point.
3. Fan Smoothing. The fan will not suddenly come on all at once. Instead it will gradually increase, making it less noticable and may actually turn back off (slowly) because the temperature drops and it no longer needs to be on.
These changes work better if using Speedstep. If using a Celeron processor there is no speedstep and so the system will run hotter and the fan may be on more frequently.
On battery, only the fan smoothing and the higher trip is effective.
That's it. Remember small and light means the system will run a little hotter than big heavy and clunky systems, I'm sure the form factor is one of the main reasons you purchased your systems.
This thread is a little long, maybe someone can start a new thread for those people on dialup connections. |
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Isabelle W
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Sep 15, 2005 13:01:25 GMT
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:)
Thank you Andy and HP.
Hope the bios fix will work.
Now, I have the nx6110 wt celeron, so hoping for a fix to give similar results soon then (even if as you say, Andy, that it's not the same :( when there isn't any speedstep function).
Maybe a new thread could be started to report how the new bios fix is working for you guys. |
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Jan Barth
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Sep 15, 2005 14:55:59 GMT
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Thank you, Andy! I am pleasantly surprised to see my problem solved so quickly. With the changes to the BIOS that you mentioned above I have no doubt that the notebook will evolve to its intended potential.
Thanks to the HP Cutstomer Support as well,
Jan Barth
I can't wait to get the new bios. I presume it's out the 19th of September? |
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Jogi
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Sep 15, 2005 17:09:42 GMT
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Nice to hear that something is finally being done to satisfy the needs of the customers.
But may I remind you Andy, and HP in general, that this problem is still there with earlier nc6000/nc8000 series. I surely hope that these BIOS enhancements will be included in next BIOS releases of these models too. If not all of those, then maybe at least the first trip point raised to 50c.
I've tried nc8000 with fan unplugged to test where the temperature stays and I've noticed that in quite normal office enviroment the CPU temperature stays at 44-47 degrees in light use (browsing the web etc.). Just enough to kick in the fan.
Raising the trip point with 5 degrees would surely help to keep the fan off when it's not really needed - and the same time make us, the customers, more satisfied with our products. |
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Jan Barth
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Sep 16, 2005 06:11:50 GMT
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Hello Jogi,
I can confirm your measurements since yesterday something rather curious happened to my nx8220. After fully reloading my battery, I unplugged the system, then accidentally plugged in in and out again. At that point the system behaved normally, but after reading an pdf-document for about 30 minutes I wondered why I hadn't heard the fan come on as usual.
Interested I opened the CPU temperature reader and disovered that the CPU was running at 47°C while the fan was not yet activated. Remember, the system was running at this temperature in passive cooling mode for a while so I can conclude that this temperature is more or less the point where the system will not get any hotter unless you run some serious calculations or use the 3D Accelerator card.
I was surprised by the behaviour (and happy to be able to work in silence for once) that I kept the system running for a few more hours. In that time the fan did not switch on again. The temperature went up to 49 degrees after a few hours, but other than that the system did not need to be actively cooled.
Of course I had to push this situation and used a lot of CPU afterwards which let the CPU temp climb up to about 55 degrees. At this point though I restarted the computer since this behaviour was not intended by HP and sure enough the fan started up almost immediately on power level 2, which was, after a few hours of silence, rather annoying.
I thought I would share this intelligence with you and hope that it will not conclude in an investigation. I could not by the way reconstruct that ominous behaviour, even though I would like to do it more often, especially when working in libraries.
If you wish any further information do not hesitate to contact me via this thread.
Jan Barth |
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Olaf
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Sep 16, 2005 09:12:58 GMT
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Hi Andy,
will this change be applied to NC62xx Bios too as promised?
Thanks,
Olaf |
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Olaf
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Sep 16, 2005 09:14:20 GMT
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Will this change be appied to NC62xx Bios too as promised? |
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Robert
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Sep 16, 2005 11:36:20 GMT
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Hi!
I hope the new BIOS won't suffer from slow keyboard (slow key rate/big delay) like the previous version (F.0A) did on nx6110... (or is it just me?)
Anyway, I'm looking forward to the new BIOS! Thanks! |
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Andy Fisher
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Sep 16, 2005 11:44:24 GMT
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One thing I forgot to mention for you mobile meter users. You will now see that there is a TZ#4. It's really not a temperature indicator but shows the percentage that the fan is running at. Just for those of you analytical types. |
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Michał Jeleń
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Sep 19, 2005 10:02:21 GMT
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Thanks Andy!
Your work is awesome! Can't wait to test the results!
Greetings |
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Extreme_Boky
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Sep 20, 2005 01:26:53 GMT
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Great news, thanks Andy. It is very nice to know that HP takes care of their customers. All those who complained about the fan noise will be able to try the new BIOS and keep the fan off longer.
The motherboard chipset (passively cooled) gets really hot under heavy use and keeping the fan ON all the time helps to cool down this heat sink as well. This is very important because the motherboard chipset is located in the middle of the laptop and the section of its heat sink sits right on top of the switching power supply capacitors â probably done to keep the noise under control. The caps might object to higher ambient temps for long periods of time.
I managed to get the fan to switch off under the light loads anyway by carefully selecting and applying the heat sink compound, aligning the fan with heat exchanger fins and by installing centrino hardware control utility. I also admit than not everybody is comfy carrying out these mods.
I'll try the latest BIOS and observe the temperature behaviour. I like to keep things cool. I have checked recently other laptops cooling systems - they have heat exchangers on BOTH the CPU and motherboard chipset. However, they are around 3Kg, unfortunately.
Extreme_Boky |
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Sebastian
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Sep 22, 2005 11:26:11 GMT
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Is there a specific date when the Bios Update for the increased fan trip point will be realeased and offered to download? I'm asking this because it depends on this update if I will buy the nx8220. |
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Peter Leban
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Sep 24, 2005 13:53:07 GMT
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I just bought nx6110... The fan is always on, I am very sad. Before I had HP with AMD processor, people said to me fan is too much on and it would be better with Intel. So I am dissapointed about this kind of quality.
Are there any news about possibility of BIOS solution?
Is this problem occuring to ALL nx61xx?
Bye, Peter. |
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Pavel Krutil
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Sep 26, 2005 04:49:51 GMT
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I have bought an nc6120 (P-M740, 15XGA, 1GBRAM, 60G HDD, XPPro SP2 plus all currently available XPPro hotfixes) and have observed exactly the same "fan always on" symptoms described above. HP service people claimed it was a known issue and have exchanged the fan. This did not change anything. Once the HDD temp. jumps from 40 to 45C, the fan triggers on and keeps droning. This is very annoying. Otherwise this is a great laptop, so I am eagerly awaiting the BIOS update promised above. This is for Andy: when (if at all) will it be released for the nc6120? Otherwise I will have to start looking for a completely different solution... |
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Michał Jeleń
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Sep 26, 2005 05:04:31 GMT
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Hi!
@Peter: please read this thread - bios update will be released soon for nx61xx according to Andy's post from Sep 15.
@Pavel: please read Andy's post from Sep 15. Bios for nx61xx as well as for nc61xx will be released soon. It will be identical, since nc6120 differs from nx6120 only in warranty.
Still waiting for bios update though!
Greetz, |
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Extreme_Boky
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Sep 27, 2005 07:34:20 GMT
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I'd like to remind everyone that there are ways to keep the fan off with current notebook configurations. This thread is full of very useful comments and suggestions.
All one has to do is to read it from the beginning.
Extreme_Boky |
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Pavel Krutil
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Sep 27, 2005 11:39:25 GMT
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To Extreme_Boky: Thanks for the above advice. I HAVE read all the posts in this forum very carefully, but I am simply neither going to open the case or try to tweak the system in any other way. HP recommends XP SP2 for this system and I think it is their responsibility to sell a system which works out-of-the-box with a recommended OS without any annoying side-effects such as noisy fans. I have been thinking about buying a few nc6120s for the people I work with, and I don't think that anybody in this forum or at HP expects me to open all of them and make any of the hw/sw modifications suggested above. Or do you? Or anybody at HP? I THINK Andy here has done a great job, and I will KNOW he has once the fan of my nc6120 goes silent. Still waiting for a WORKING BIOS update, and wondering what "soon" means... |
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Sake Hoekstra
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Sep 27, 2005 13:16:12 GMT
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@Peter Leban
Stop listening to people. It's no black and white story. You know now.
My previous NX9005 (mobile AthlonXP 2000+)was always quiet when doing office/internet stuff. A HP NX9010 (P4-M 2.8) is plain horrible regarding noise. More like a vacuumcleaner.
My new NX6125 (AMD Turion) does even better then a collegue's NX6120 (slow P-M/Centrino, something like 1.5)
In general slower CPU in bigger casing is going to be more quiet. The NX6XXX series is pretty thin so harder for HP to make/keep it quiet. And the new P-M(Dothan) gets quiet hotter then older P-M(Banias) All things to consider. PCI express, higher RAM speeds, faster Video also make a notebook hotter. And harder for a manufacterer to make it cool and quiet.
Hopefully HP/Andy comes up with a good compromise for NX6XX0 owners.
Perhaps a trade in of a NX61X0 for a NX61X5 is an option. Very much the same but not with a fan being always on. |
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Robert Reijerkerk
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Sep 27, 2005 13:47:21 GMT
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To Andy:
I was asked by grayson to post in this thread regarding my problem and if it could be related to bios problems on the nx61xx series. (mine is a nx6125 AMD Turion based)
The problem in short:
Resume from standby only works if the system is in standby for a few seconds beyond that if i try to resume the fan comes on full speed and the screen stays blank, i have to power off the notebook to get it working again.
I've tried a full system restore, bios update and downgrade (shipped version F.07 tried F.08 and F.05) the problem persists.
I found out trough trial and error that if i remove the memory module from slot 1 standby works as its supposed to (havent tried longer then a few minutes though)
For a full read of my problem : http://forums1.itrc.hp.com/service/forums/bizsupport/questionanswer.do?threadId=960205
When standby isnt invoked the system is perfectly stable no problem whatsoever
So in my eyes it couldn't be a hardware defect but i could be wrong ofcourse.
I hope you or someone else can shed some light on this problem, and if i need to return the product for repairs.
Regards,
Robert
Ps. My colleague has the same notebook and it doen't have my problem (i even tried a his installation and his bios (F.07) on my notebook to no avail. |
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Robert Reijerkerk
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Sep 27, 2005 15:09:31 GMT
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Andy:
From my own thread we concluded it can only be a hardware defect in the standby powersupply of the first memory slot.
so the above post can be ignored.
Robert |
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Extreme_Boky
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Sep 27, 2005 18:31:02 GMT
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To Pavel Krutil:
I understand your approach 100%, Pavel.
I was suggesting couple of ways to reduce noise problem without a risk of BIOS upgrade. Many will think that there are no risks involved when flashing the ROM, but my 20-year experience tells me that each upgrade introduces fixes, and always some new problems. My suggestion is to dump the BIOS first, i.e. make the backup.
I am at the moment very happy with the BIOS and all I suggested was how to minimize the fan noise problem. I also understand people who are reluctant to open the notebook, remove the heats inks, fan, do not even know what the heat sink compound is.
All other notebooks I worked with do turn their fans on and off as well. I also believe that trying to live with a bit of fan noise is better than having to worry about long term effects of running the motherboard hot.
Extreme_Boky |
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Robert Reijerkerk
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Sep 28, 2005 10:37:50 GMT
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Just a quick question.
Is the nx8220 also affected by the fan/bios "problem" ?
Robert |
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Jan Barth
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Oct 1, 2005 16:06:05 GMT
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yes, the nx8220 is also affected by the fan / bios problem. I hope the new bios promised will be released soon. Keep the hopes up everybody! |
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Andy Fisher
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Oct 3, 2005 16:06:47 GMT
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5 more days and counting down. :) |
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Peter Leban
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Oct 3, 2005 17:11:39 GMT
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After 5 more days, what will happen? It will be 8th of October ;-)
Do you have information about new Bios?
I noticed that when working on batteries fan starts just from time to time. I think you guys already noticed this... But anyway.
It is very interesting that this computer does not spend almost any processor time, only at specific applications you can get it over 10%...
I hold my fingers for new BIOS!
Thank you Andy. |
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Simon
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Oct 5, 2005 06:54:13 GMT
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Jeeha, bios is available.
Unfortunately I'm not at home to test it, but can't wait to do so. |
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Michał Jeleń
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Oct 5, 2005 07:47:47 GMT
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Andy!
Just installed BIOS update. Working flawlessly! "Fan always on" option bearly hearable, on battery my nx6110 w Pentium M stays silent most of the time. Also fan goes on higher speed in incremental steps, goes down in incremental steps as promised - no longer disturbing! Looks cool on Mobile Meter as well ;-). Whole setup runs slightly hotter on battery due to higher first trip point, but it's SILENT!
Great job Andy - praises to you!
Michal |
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Jogi
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Oct 5, 2005 07:57:39 GMT
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Nice to see that there is finally fixed BIOS available for those series.
But I'd still like to know if we, who have older models, are going to have same kind of update too. |
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Peter Walgemoed
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Oct 5, 2005 08:20:44 GMT
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Can this bios update also be used for the NC6220 series? In the Bios update of this model (same 15 sep. release date) the thermal enhancements are not mentioned.
Peter |
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Isabelle W
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Oct 5, 2005 08:40:19 GMT
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Can't find any new bios for nx6110?
Latest version I see is 15 sept. Haven't installed that one, though. |
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Michał Jeleń
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Oct 5, 2005 08:56:23 GMT
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This is this one! It's dated 15'th september, but it's been put online today.
Greetz, |
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Cristian Secară
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Oct 5, 2005 08:58:50 GMT
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After BIOS f.0e -> f.0f update, MobileMeter 0.3.1.0 shows 4 temperatures (instead of 3 before the update).
What is the 4-th temperature ?
(nc8230 here; I took a snapshot of MM befor the update, so I can compare all parameters)
Cristi |
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Radovan
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Oct 5, 2005 09:08:38 GMT
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Andy,
thanks for the BIOS, but
THE PROBLEM WITH KEYBOARD (too slow) STILL REMAINS !!!
so I had to downgrade again ;-(
can you have a look at it, PLEASE
thanks |
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Michał Jeleń
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Oct 5, 2005 09:12:18 GMT
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Hey!
I'm sorry to confirm keyboard problem. It's terribly slow! I'll be also forced to downgrade my bios. It's a pity, because temperature management is great!
TZ 4 in Mobile Meter is your current fan speed. 20 stays for 20%, 40 for 40% etc.
Greetz, |
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Isabelle W
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Oct 5, 2005 09:16:47 GMT
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Ok, thanks for info re bios, however I will not upgrade until I know more about the problem with slow key board (even though I am a slow typer :) ) |
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Michał Jeleń
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Oct 5, 2005 10:04:49 GMT
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Hey!
Waiting for permanent solution of keyboard issue (probably another bios release) I've found temporary solution, that allows me to use new bios maintaining normal response from keyboard.
There is small freeware utility called Keyboard King, that sets keyboard delay etc. It can be downloaded from http://bandwidthcontroller.com/Keyboard%20King/
Tried it - keyboard works ok under new bios while using this program. But I'm not really happy with the fact, that I have to use another utility (after RMClock for temps using older bios) to make this notebook work well.
This thread is very, very long now. As temperature problem is IMO solved with new bios I think we should move keyboard issue to another thread.
Greetz, |
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Cristian Secară
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Oct 5, 2005 10:20:44 GMT
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How can be put in evidence this slowness ?
I tried a random Open Office document, Notepad, e-mail, a DOS-mode file manager. Apparently I see no problem here (nc8230).
Keyboard settings on my system are
Repeat delay: = max. to -> Short
Repeat rate: = max. to -> Fast
Cristi |
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Martin Hoppen
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Oct 5, 2005 12:36:37 GMT
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Nice to see the new BIOS available. But how about a LINUX version (.tar)? I don't have Windows installed at all on my nx8220 and I don't have an USB floppy either.
There was a LINUX version for revision F.0E. Using that one I was able to make a bootable CD for the update.
So when will there be a LINUX version for rev. F.0F?
Or does one of the Windows-based versions create a bootable CD?
Regards
Martin |
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Robert
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Oct 5, 2005 13:33:36 GMT
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I've just installed the new BIOS. The machine(nx6110) is running nearly noiseless now and the temperature in idle mode is just 2°C higher than before! Perfect work. Thx@Andy
Concerning the keyboard I recognized that the return key was reacting a bit slowly but it's not as slow as in the previous BIOS version. All other keys work normally. |
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Isabelle W
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Oct 5, 2005 14:53:00 GMT
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Many Thanks to Andy and his team!
I've also just installed the new BIOS.
Agreeing with Roberts posting, however, to next BIOS upgrade I would like the fan to stay off even longer, if possible ;)
Appreciating very much the gradual fan off function. This could be implemented for fan on, also I think.
Anyhow,
thanks again Andy :) |
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Cristian Secară
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Oct 5, 2005 15:14:42 GMT
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To Martin Hoppen:
I suppose you must use the "DOS Bootable Diskette" version to generate a bootable diskette on a MS-OS based computer that has a floppy drive. Then make a bootable CD with the content of that diskette as the boot loader. Then use this CD to boot your notebook.
It may be not very handy, but it is a solution ... I have done this on another notebook (non-HP) and worked very well. I used a rewritable CD for that purpose.
Cristi |
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Martin Hoppen
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Oct 5, 2005 15:36:02 GMT
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to Cristian Secara:
Good idea! Can you tell me how to get the boot floppy's content to a CD?
Apart from that I really think that this update will also appear in a LINUX version sometime (just as the last one did). But I surely don't want to wait :-) |
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Cristian Secară
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Oct 5, 2005 16:03:06 GMT
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To Martin Hoppen:
Well, that depends on the software used to burn a CD.
I am using Nero Burning ROM (Ahead software), which has the possibility to create a bootable CD. The boot information can be taken from a physical floppy disk, or from a floppy disk image.
I suppose other CD burning software may be used as well, but I have no idea which ...
Cristi |
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Radovan
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Oct 5, 2005 19:16:48 GMT
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Hi,
I really appreciate Andy's effort, but I regret to say, that almost nothing has changed for me. After cca 2 minutes of using my laptop, the temperature stays at more than 50 degrees and can't drop below that, which means that the fan stays at 40 and sometimes goes up to 55 - the result against previous situation seams to be just the fan smoothing
+ slow keyboard
Is it just my laptop (nx6110) or anybody else observed the same? |
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Jon Swanson
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Oct 5, 2005 20:20:00 GMT
N/A: Question Author
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Radovan - sadly, that is exactly the same thing I see on my nc6120. The only changes are smoother fan transitions and the slower keyboard. Maybe they hoped if they slowed down user input, then the CPU would run cooler ;-(
My system has been sitting for 30 minutes doing nothing but running MobileMeter in a 70 degree room, and it never drops below 50 degrees C, the fan is always on, even though the cpu has stayed at 800MHz. |
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Rainald
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Oct 6, 2005 00:56:47 GMT
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|| Maybe they hoped if they slowed down user input, then the CPU would run cooler ;-(
ROFLMAO
Rainald |
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Martin Hoppen
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Oct 6, 2005 02:28:30 GMT
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to Cristian Secara: I'll give that a try! Thank you. |
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Michał Jeleń
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Oct 6, 2005 03:18:58 GMT
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Slow keyboard is really annoying, but in my case changes in temperature department gave good results.
I work in the office, where temperature stays 23-24 degrees centigrate and with "fan always on AC" my temp is around 44-47 degrees. With this option off my temp is about 47-50 and fan is on every 10-12 minutes for about 30 seconds and then goes off. Much improvement.
When I use RMClock I can get my temps even lower. Even when on full load (at 1,6 ghz) my fan never reaches 2nd speed (55%), and at idle (at 800 mhz) it stays at 43 degrees.
@Radovan: I've read from your earlier post, that you have Celeron machine. Celerons will run hotter, so I think your temps are at expected level.
@Isabelle: My fan increases it's speed also in incremental steps while going on to the next speed. Check attachment, there is screenshot from mobile meter with 2 second interval. You can see, that on heavy load temperature increases, and fan speed (Temperature 4) also increases in steps.
Greetz |
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Maciej Kujawa
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Oct 6, 2005 03:31:02 GMT
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After upgrading BIOS in my new 2.13GHz nx8220 I am pleased to report that now I'm fully satisfied. No problems at all with temperatures and keyboard. |
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Michał Jeleń
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Oct 6, 2005 04:06:46 GMT
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I suppose, that keyboard problem appears only in 6xxx series, as 8xxx users don't report any problems with keyboard.
BTW by "slow" keyboard I mean slower repeat rate while pressing one key for a longer period of time (approx 12 chars/sec while should be 30 chars/sec on max setting in Control Panel), for example Backspace or Arrow key. It's frustrating.
Greetings |
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Maciej Kujawa
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Oct 6, 2005 04:21:16 GMT
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Yes. You're probably right. For my new 2.13GHz nx8220 I can report no problems at all with temperatures and with keyboard as well. |
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Marko
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Oct 6, 2005 04:22:32 GMT
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Thanks to Andy and his team.
I wonder why the fan isn't coming on smoothly as promised before because the sensors are to sensitive. I used mobilmeter and had to set interval to 0,5s to actually see when/why the fan goes on. The temperature only touch 50C and go back to 47-48C but the fan is activated immediately and drops the temperature down to 45-44C.
I like the decreasing of the fan, its perfect.
I haven't any problem with slow keyboard but that's maybe because I am not the quickest with my fingers?
This is so much better than before so I shouldn't complain but it can always be better so I hope that my notes about fan and sensor are read as positive critique. Maybe my notes are used to next BIOS upgrade?
@IsabelleW, I agree to your notes
Again, Thanks Andy! |
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Michał Jeleń
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Oct 6, 2005 06:37:20 GMT
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Isabelle W
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Oct 6, 2005 07:09:46 GMT
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Hi Guys,
What about asking moderators to close this "rather" long thread, so that we can start a new one regarding continued fan and upgrading BIOS issues in the 6xxx and 8xxx notebook series? |
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Rainald
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Oct 6, 2005 19:42:20 GMT
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Isabelle,
pls let me take the libertey to disagree.
Let's keep things together.
Rainald |
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JosephF
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Oct 6, 2005 20:11:14 GMT
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I'm with Rainald. Anything pertaining to the same issue is easier to understand/reference if it's all together. splitting into multiple threads results in repeat information being posted much more often, and focus is lost.
Just my 2 cents. And also am curious, any chance of getting a similar bios modification in the nc6000?
--- |
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Extreme_Boky
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Oct 7, 2005 05:53:53 GMT
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Hi everyone,
these are my impressions after 2 days of using the latest BIOS on nx6120 1.6GHz
I must say I like it a lot. Especially with Fan ON at 20% when on AC. The noise is negligible and the fan keeps the temperature down below 40 deg C. Very nice indeed. I like to keep things cool and believe that temps of 50 deg C or more could do harm in the longer term.
Another thing I like a lot: the CPU temperature spike does not trigger fan in to 40% speed. Excellent. It appears to me that HP guys spent time to get it right.
I have installed Centrino Hardware Control utility and have 0.7V at 800MHz and 1.1V at 1.6GHz. Full speed gets hit at 20% (or more) of CPU usage. So I have full CPU speed almost always when I need it, except when laptop is idling / doing nothing.
The keyboard issue? It is annoying, but I could learn to live with it until next BIOS fix. I suggest attacking both keyboard problems in one go:
1. Slow repeat rate
2. Only two characters' presses get registered
And, I just can't resist but to mention that many people are straight down unrealistic about their requirements / expectations. They expect lightweight / slim laptop of solid performance and excellent connectivity to run without almost any heat dissipation while fan should stay OFF almost all the time. It is a bit unfair as well towards Andy and HP team.
Sorry if I offended anyone. I just had to say it.
Extreme_Boky |
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Radovan
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Oct 7, 2005 09:16:15 GMT
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Extreme_boky:
the problem is, that celeron users (like me nx6110) don't know what the fan at 20 % is at all.
I'm running no application in the backround when browsing internet except for antivirus and messenger and after a while from turning the laptop on the temperature can't drop below 50 degrees.
see my previous post from Oct 5, 2005 23:16:48 GMT |
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Nic
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Oct 7, 2005 10:38:12 GMT
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using the new BIOS,
I'm getting 45deg at 800mhz and when I use the max performance mode I get
52-56deg in just a few seconds at 1.74ghz.
The fan is not as loud when rin normally and when it's always on, you kind of get used to it. Not as irritating as before when it would shut down and turn on every so often which is very noticable. |
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Isabelle W
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Oct 7, 2005 12:55:47 GMT
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SpeedFan?
Could someone explain (in an easy way) what Raw Read Error Rate is, and why it is warning now (in SpeedFan, under S.M.A.R.T. tab)? Didn't have that warning before the BIOS fix, as far as I remember
(nx6110, Celeron m).
It says that Value is 62 and Worst is 60 and Warn is at 34
(Raw: 000006FEA972)
All the other values have an OK sign or nothing, but Raw Read Error Rate...? |
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Murat
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Oct 7, 2005 14:47:41 GMT
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My old conputer toshiba m30 was newer kicks the fan till 60C. I thing hp have to do this. Centrino tech allow max 100C. But my current notebook nx8220 fan working noisy after 50C this is not logical. |
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Extreme_Boky
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Oct 7, 2005 23:03:11 GMT
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Radovan:
Your uPC does not have Centrino technology enabled, unfortunately.
You can try 2 or 3 things, but ONLY if you are technically minded:
1. The first and easiest would be to put 2 little rubber feet at the far corners (where the lcd screen is) to lift the laptop another cm or two. This will help a lot in reducing the temperature. Try to place your laptop on a flat surface without any covers / cloths or similar fabrics.
2 and 3 involve opening the laptop!!
2. This involves removing the heat sinks of the uPC and motherboard chipset, removing the existing heat sink compound, and applying ArcticSilver 5 silver heat sink compound. You'll need to remove the fan first.
3. Align the fan with the heat sink / heat exchanger fins. Be careful to tuck in the fan wires. Otherwise, they could get squashed when you screw back in the keyboard screws at the end of this "mod".
This should cut down the temperature to around 40 deg C. The modification (2. and 3.) probably voids the warranty. Youâve been warned!
Good luck,
Extreme_Boky |
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cucio
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Oct 8, 2005 10:51:31 GMT
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The new BIOS trip points and hysteresis work quite well for me when combined with undervolting.
I have a nc6120 with a Pentium M 730 and have undervolted the 800 MHz to 0.700 V. I also have raised 2-3 cm the rear of the laptop from the table to keep a good air flow.
If I just do some light web browsing and document reading I can keep a stable situation of
TZ1 = 47 C
TZ2 = 47 C
TZ3 = 30 C
Before this meant the fan on every couple of minutes, but now it is always off.
I also managed to undervolt my CPU in Linux. For that you need to get a 2.6.12 kernel (2.6.13 seems not to work yet with these laptops) and apply (at your own risk) Rickard Holmberg's patch.
http://avkrok.net/nw8240/
The 20% always on mode is a very nice addition, but careful undervolting and ventilation will make it unnecessary. Yay! |
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Fredrik
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Oct 8, 2005 10:57:49 GMT
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This issue has been in the pipeline for several mounths now. Why is there not a fix yet? I can't think with the constant fan-noise. Make a solution available to us now please.
-Fredrik |
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Isabelle W
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Oct 8, 2005 12:24:40 GMT
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Whohoo,
maybe you should check the thread above before you post - there is a new bios... |
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Marko
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Oct 8, 2005 16:37:44 GMT
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few notes after using new BIOS for couple of days.
1. when using external power I really like F10 feature, perfect!
2. decreasing technique is perfect!
3. higher temperature triggers are much better!
Conclusion:
At the moment I rather use external power because it is better, not said that using internal power is not good.
I still wonder why the opposite to decreasing technique is not used when fan is activated? I hope that technique is implemented in next BIOS. It can't be difficult to program the opposite when the algortihm is already done? but I am not the expert here.
Why I want it? because I think the temparature sensor is to sensitive(as I wrote before) and the fan nocie is not so notably when using inc./dec. technique.
It can always be better!
If I had this BIOS from the beginning I had probebly not complain in the first place.....maybe the inc./dec. technique. :)
@extreme_boky
is it possible that you can explain your point three more or why not take a picture?
Thanks to Andy again! |
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Marko
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Oct 9, 2005 04:29:43 GMT
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I missed one line in the conclusion:
If the temperature triggers are moved to higher degrees and the inc. technique starts from 5X degrees C. with 20% fan activity and when 5X+2 degrees C. fan goes with 30% fan activity and so on it will be perfect I think, known from own experience with embedded systems but of course not complete the same as notebook BIOS.
Everything can always be better and get good profit to HP. |
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Marko
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Oct 11, 2005 04:13:20 GMT
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This is the true inc./dec. technique used in the new BIOS.
See attached picture. |
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Andy Fisher
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Oct 11, 2005 12:02:48 GMT
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One point to Marko. If the fan is completely off and needs to come on we have to give it a little kick start. That's why you see the jump to 60 and then back down to 40 very quickly. If the fan is already running like when on AC then the fan will ramp up incrementally like you suggested. |
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Peter Leban
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Oct 11, 2005 12:27:21 GMT
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To Andy:
I am very happy now with new BIOS.
For the next version - is it possible to put an option to have fan on even if running on batteries? Now when I have it on batteries the fan comes and goes. I am sure that power needed to start the fan is not small and constant running would not affect battery life so much. Maybe constant 10% fan load would be enough to keep it cool and when needed it just goes up for some %.
But I have to tell you I am really happy with my computer (nx6110, celeron) now.
Thanks
Regards
Peter. |
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Stephan Kotthoff
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Oct 12, 2005 02:51:45 GMT
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Dear Andy,
why wasn't it possible for you guys to do the changes regarding the fan/temperature problems to the nc6200 series, too? I was sure that the new bios for the nc6200 would have had implemented the changes you have done to the nc6120 series because the problems for the nc6200 series are the same. A collegue of mine uses the nc6120, I am using the nc6220. The fan of the nc6220 is always on even when the temperature of the cpu/chipset is so low that you only get cold air on the outlet.
Thanks, Stephan. |
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Juha Larjomaa
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Oct 12, 2005 03:01:59 GMT
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Hi Andy,
Could you let us know the status regarding nc6000 as well? The experienced problems are very similar.
Thanks. |
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Frank Roethke
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Oct 12, 2005 08:22:51 GMT
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Or maybe there is a new BIOS for the nc6220, too, and we just can't find it ? The one I can find is from September, 15th 2005 called F.0D.
So where is that download-site again and what is the name of the Bios ? F.0E ? |
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Marko
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Oct 12, 2005 12:24:53 GMT
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With all respect Andy, I am little thoughtful
How can fan go up to 20% of speed from 0% of speed when external power is added without âkick-startâ up to 60%? |
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Andy Fisher
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Oct 12, 2005 14:35:26 GMT
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If the fan is off running on battery and you apply power the fan will jump to 60% then drop to 20%. But it happens so fast the fan doesn't really go to 60%, it's just giving it a hard shove to get it going.
Like when you start your car there's an enormous current rush to get the starter motor turning. |
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Marko
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Oct 12, 2005 16:47:56 GMT
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Thanks Andy!
To end this discussion:
There is increase (/decrease) technique in new BIOS.
When not using F10 and using external or internal power the temperature rise very quick round 49-51C and go immediately to 40% of fan speed through 60% fan speed (not notably, usually). It means that the 20% trip-point not exists or that the temperature passes that trip-point really fast with consequence that it is not viewed in the MobilMeter and not audible.
To all new readers:
This new BIOS is good and this discussion is only to make clear how the new BIOS actually are working. Of course everything can get even better and give HP and users more satisfaction. For instance that the second step in algorithm for the fan activates little later that it get a gentle (more) start, similar to when it is decreasing.
Thanks for your time and your work with the new BIOS Andy! |
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Marko
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Oct 13, 2005 02:42:17 GMT
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Elucidation:
End of discussion of how the increase/decrease function works in the new BIOS.
Let the forum live for other questions round the fan and temperature. |
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Michał Jeleń
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Oct 13, 2005 03:36:07 GMT
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Hey!
All nx6110/nc6120 users, if you are experiencing KEYBOARD PROBLEM (slow key rate) after upgrading to new bios PLEASE post on
http://forums1.itrc.hp.com/service/forums/bizsupport/questionanswer.do?threadId=963176
I belive, that all nx/nc 61xx users with bios F.0B or F.0A experience this problem. Everything was fine in F.06
Maybe when there are enough people posting Andy will take look on this issue ;-). Andy, you are our hope!
Greetings |
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Michał Jeleń
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Oct 13, 2005 03:41:04 GMT
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Edit:
This thread is called:
"[nx6110] "Slow" keyboard after bios update" |
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Frank Roethke
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Oct 13, 2005 07:06:07 GMT
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To all you guys who are cheering uni sonum how great the new bios works...
Please let me join the choir and tell me where to get the BIOS for my nc6220.
HP Drivers and Support page offers F.0D.
Not a word about fan issue.
Please, please a short notice. Our company is just handing out about 3000 of these notebooks with the old BIOS. Could imagine, that there are more people waiting for an answer to this question.
Thanks. |
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Cristian Secară
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Oct 13, 2005 08:10:20 GMT
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Just curious - the new BIOS is designed to work at minimum 40% fan spin ? Because (as Marko previously observed) the 20% is actually not noticeable.
When on battery, the fan toggles ON and OFF at 3-5 minutes approx., where ON = 40% spin. The 20% step, if present (?), is too short to be noticed. During this time, the CPU jumps between 45-50*C approx..
When on AC, the fan stays constantly at 40%, but this is probably because the CPU temp stays at about 50-52*C.
nc8230 here, with 1,73GHz CPU.
Cristi |
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Bernhard Piazzi
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Oct 13, 2005 08:51:18 GMT
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@Cristian:
The 20% fan step only exists, if the notebook is plugged in, and in the bios "fan always on in AC mode" is activated. |
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Cristian Secară
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Oct 13, 2005 09:13:25 GMT
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@Bernhard:
The "Fan always ON on AC power" is enabled. I can see this both in F10, as well as in HP ProtectTools Security Manager -> BIOS Configuration -> Device Options.
In fact I never touched this option (it was set as "Yes" by default).
Cristi |
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Isabelle W
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Oct 13, 2005 17:27:49 GMT
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Cristian Secară
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Oct 13, 2005 18:45:01 GMT
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To Isabelle W:
Some users (like Frank Roethke) have asked for fan issue improvement in BIOS update for nc6220.
Your link points to a support page for nc/nx6110/6120.
Cristi |
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Andy Fisher
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Oct 13, 2005 19:43:52 GMT
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I'm working on the 62xx systems. We're working on the port over to the BIOS and I'm working on permission to release. |
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Isabelle W
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Oct 14, 2005 02:38:50 GMT
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To Cristian,
Sorry, my mistake (it was a little to late for me last night).
However, there are some 'peps' who do not seem to find it, even though their notebook model complies with the bios in question. |
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Stephan Kotthoff
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Oct 16, 2005 03:43:55 GMT
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Thanks Andy.
Nice to hear that you are working on the issue regarding the fan problem of the nc62xx series, too.
At the moment I am only typing this post and the fan is working at level 2. On the outlet there is only cold! air coming out. This is rather annoying. |
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Richard
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Oct 16, 2005 06:59:10 GMT
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I bought my Compaq nx6120 in New Zealand in about May 2005 and have been very pleased except for the fan problems mentioned above, which now seem to be largely a thing of the past.
(Annoying is though that two of the USB ports and also the sound card plugs are so far forward on the right-hand side. When using the keyboard my hand frequently knock plugs in these ports, with the result that they break quickly.)
Back to the fan... as summarised by Extreme_Boky on August 30 a reduction of the CPU voltages using CHC solved the fan problem.
However, after a hard month at work using CHC successfully I tryied a full backup of my hard disk using 123 (English version also available) and using the LAN to put the backup on the hard disk of my desktop. This takes approx. 90 min with the CPU at near 100% and the LAN also near 100%. I have been doing these backups for over a year and now and have not had problems with any computers - until I installed CHC.
The problem is, that after approximately 1 hour my nx6120 would freeze and only after the holding of the on/off button and a restart could I go back to work. After this happened six or seven times and trying different things I finally uninstalled CHC and the problem went away. (Of course the fan was running at high speed all the time.)
It would appear that at times when the LAN circuits are under heavy use there is insufficient cooling for the LAN electronics if the CPU voltages are reduced. Having recognised that I now turn off CHC before heavy use of the LAN for extended periods of time.
This is perhaps one explanation why Hewlett-Packard initially set such high CPU voltages.
Thanks everyone for the hints and discussion!
Richard |
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Richard
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Oct 16, 2005 07:04:43 GMT
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PS. Sorry, the backup program I use is "Acronis True Image ver.7". Richard |
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Cristian Secară
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Oct 16, 2005 08:01:20 GMT
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Richard,
I doubt that *HP* choosed the actual voltage for the CPU. There are electrical specifications from the CPU manufacturer (Intel in this case) that have to be followed strictly, if a final reliable product is to be expected. This is an industrial product, not a hobby made / hobby tuned device.
Cristi |
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Extreme_Boky
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Oct 16, 2005 08:11:38 GMT
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Hi Richard,
The problem you have experienced is a well known fact. You ran the uPC at full speed for a long period of time at high temperature. The temperature / heat is a problem here. More heat means more voltage needed for reliable operation at given frequency. This is in fact related to the theory of superconductivity of materials. Something has to give / change. Either it is lowering the frequency, or boosting up the voltage.
With CHC you can set nominal, manufacturers specified volts at high frequency, and still keep lower than nominal volts at low frequency, therefore preventing the fan to kick in at normal loads. For example, for 1.6GHz uPC, choose 0.7V at 800MHz, but at 1.6GHz choose full 1.3V instead of 1.1V.
It is very important to place the laptop on a flat surface without any table cloths. It helps a lot if you lift the back of your laptop a cm or 2 during heavy loads. This should stop freezing up of uPC/memory.
Good luck
Extreme_Boky |
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Extreme_Boky
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Oct 16, 2005 08:42:59 GMT
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Hi Cristian,
I also run my uPC at full load for anywhere between 30min to 1.5 hours with CHC setting of 1.1V at full frequency without any problem. The Intel specified voltage is 1.3V but is not really needed. I am a games addict and play them to unwind.
I have been using my laptop for at least 30min. while typing and browsing the net tonight and the temperature never went up above 40 deg C with the latest BIOS (room temp is around 20 deg C or a bit less), while on battery supply, i.e. fan not spinning at all! CHC setting is 0.7V @ 800MHz. Higher speed is not needed at the moment, but it is a full 1.6GHz @ 1.1V as soon as load hits 30%, so no sacrificing of performance here!
Careful fine tuning and attention to details are to be blamed for such a peaceful working environment. This would be unprofitable to implement in the real world manufacturing.
Extreme_Boky |
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mirror mind
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Oct 21, 2005 10:08:33 GMT
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How about the nx6110? When ac power plugged in the fan noise is reasonable, but on battery there isn't much changed. Are the technicians of HP still working on it, and is a release of a new bios upcoming? I'm talking about a nx6110 with celeron M processor here. |
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Andy Fisher
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Oct 21, 2005 11:14:01 GMT
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Unfortunately not much can be done with Celerons. They don't have the power management capabilities of the Pentium Ms. Since the Celeron will always run at full speed it will always be hotter and the fan will be used more. |
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Cusack
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Oct 23, 2005 06:59:02 GMT
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Hi everyone
Regarding the Celeron M running at full speed, you can try the speedswitch utility located at http://www.diefer.de/speedswitchxp/
I've used it and it increased the battery's life from 2h to 3h with an M360 on an Lenovo, with the fan running much less. I'll give it a try on my new NX6110 due to arrive in few days.
Just make sure that you set the "read cpu speed" to realtime calculation to see the results.
Andy, you did a great work with this issue
"Chapeau bas!" |
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Bartosz Beyer
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Oct 24, 2005 12:23:00 GMT
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@Cusack: it looksd that SpeedSwitch works only on Centrino/Pentium M processors. It does nothing on my nc6120 with celeron M. Any suggests? |
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Jogi
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Oct 25, 2005 15:04:57 GMT
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Andy, there has been more than few people asking about the destiny of NC6000 and NC8000 series, so could you please reply.
Are you planning to add these new fan features and thermal zones to those too? And if there is no plans for modifying those bioses, please tell us why. |
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Giovanni Zaccolo
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Oct 26, 2005 06:25:29 GMT
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Reference Andy's post Oct 13, 2005 23:43:52 GMT :
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm working on the 62xx systems. We're working on the port over to the BIOS and I'm working on permission to release
---------------------------------------
I can't wait to get it. My nc6220 1.86 GHz Pentium (R) M is great, however, a little too noisy, especailly working in an empty room. After turning the PC on, the fan goes ON and OFF for about half an hour but then stays always ON and fresh air comes out. It is not extremely noisy, but I really hope to be able to reduce the speed of the fan and get the features already issued for 6120.
Thanks |
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Ashim
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Oct 26, 2005 09:31:48 GMT
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This question is for Olle M in Sweden. Can you please advise the configuration of you nx8220. I am seriously considering buying one and not sure as noise is a big issue for me.
Second question for ANDY, does the same model with different configurations (for eg nx8220) will have the same behaviour (for e.g. noise) ? The one I am planning to buy is Centrino 1.73.
Third question also for Andy, have all fixes been found for the fan and noise issue for nx8220 ?
Thanks to all. |
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Martin Hoppen
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Oct 28, 2005 06:48:16 GMT
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Olle M
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Oct 28, 2005 06:50:26 GMT
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Ashim: My system is a PM750 (1,86Ghz), 512 RAM, 60GB Matsushita, DVD-ROM etc. Bought it 4-5 months ago. The computer has been great but the noise has been annoying for me. But I learned to live with it and kept my hope to Andys new BIOS config.
After installing the BIOS expectations were high, when I first rebooted my sytem I noticed an obvious improvent of fan noise. But still the fan started very sudden and not as smooth as it now faded out. Still annoying. BUT... after going to bed and in the next evening pressing the start butten was when I really noticed the big imrovement. Now the fan started smooth and faded out smooth. Huge difference and far less irritating than before. Now I have the fan on constantly on AC (20%) and I dont even notice that the fan is spinning. And the fan stays of for most of the time. (always when working with word for instance) and most of the time when browsing. If you have multiple windows open and heavy homepages the fan smoothly starts and after a short while smootlhy fades out. Wonderful! And another big improvent in my point of view is that after aorking with heavy load and you leave your computer it DOES get silent again after a while. This is very nice since I live in a small apartment and dont want to turn my computer off all the time if I ant to read or watch TV. Excellent. The fan makes more noise when flipping your digital photos and stuff but thats perfectly OK with me. To sum up: Quiet computer when doing easy tasks and fan goes smoothly on and off. For me it's a big improvement with the new bios and I am so thankful to Andy and tecnicians and you guys for sorting this fan mess up. I really hope you'll get credit for your work...
Thanks from a deligthed nx8220 owner / Olle
And Aschim if you the fan issue and silence is the key for you when buying a computer maybe you should take a look at a big ugly plastic Dell system ;) |
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Ashim
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Oct 28, 2005 11:27:06 GMT
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Dear Olle,
Thank you for your detailed reply. I really appreciate it. And thanks a ton to Andy for the fix.
I am getting a very good deal on 8220, 1.73 Centrino machine with 80GO. Was not sure if I would buy since I read this forum. I have owned a Presario 700 machine, which is so noisy that it's a big issue for me.
Now thanks to you I can advance a bit in my decision.
By the way one last question, what about the "bluetooth" related noise that some other people are talking about. Do you have this issue as well ?
Well about Dell, I recently baught an Insprion 6000, and I am frankly quiet satisfied with the price/performance/noise/heat ratio. It's bulky for sure and a little heavy, but it's much better looking than other Dell machines I have seen.
Thanks for your reply on the "bluetooth" devise issue. |
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Jan Barth
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Oct 28, 2005 13:13:33 GMT
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Hello Ashim!
Bluetooth:
The high pitched noise described by some people does exist, but there are some easy steps to eliminate that problem. First of all let's not oversize the subject; the noise is not loud at all and can only be heard in a quiet environment. Even then most people would not notice it if you didn't tell them.
When I got my machine (nx8220 out of the box) it worked fine and no noise could be heard, but strangely after I reinstalled my Windows system the noise appeared. At that point I tried a lot and finally tricked it. Since then I haven't heard it again.
I believe the noise has something to do with the voltage of the processor. I am not sure why or how, yet after I reduced the voltage to 0.700V at 800 MHz clock speed (with Centrino Hardware Control, a must have tool) the noise died away.
I hope this will work for you,
Greetings
Jan |
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Ashim
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Oct 29, 2005 05:29:29 GMT
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Dear Jan,
Thanks for your comforting reply. I truely appreciate it.
Well..another step closer to buying nx8220 now.
Thanks a lot.
Cheers
Ashim |
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Giovanni Zaccolo
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Oct 30, 2005 11:37:28 GMT
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Still about 6220: no BIOS has been released yet for the fan speed adjustement? Andy advised its incoming release on October 13..have I missed something? |
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Olle M
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Oct 31, 2005 05:31:56 GMT
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Dear Ashim
I have read so much about this high pitch noise on different places. But for me the high pitch noise is like Santa Claus! You reed about it/him, you think about it/him but still you doubt it/he really exists...
"No highpitch on my system"
Regards / Olle (27 y/o) |
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Ashim
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Oct 31, 2005 11:04:59 GMT
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Dear Olle,
Thank you for your feedback. I think I will buy it finally.
All the best.
Cheers
Ashim |
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Vlado Kocan
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Nov 6, 2005 09:07:48 GMT
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Hi Andy, what about the lifetime of the processor fan? Is it designed to run always? (In case I use my nx6110 mostly on AC).
Thanks |
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rOn
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Nov 6, 2005 17:28:04 GMT
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Hello all,
I have recently had the same Fan problem on my NC6000 which is issued to me by my company where the fan comes on and stays on constantly. What I noticed was that my task manager would show that the computer was being utilized at 100% all the time after I started a few applications but nothing that would warrant a 100% utilization. I just wanted to share what I found that helped solve my problem.
http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;en-us;899869
Since I implemented the solution on microsofts website, the problem has ceased and I now have a well functioning, cool and quiet laptop. Hope this helps some folks out there.
Take Care. |
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Michael Gibbs
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Nov 9, 2005 20:40:52 GMT
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I have recently upgraded the bios on my NX6120 to the latest version available and note while it solves a number of things and yes the fan control is much better....the keyboard repeat rate is extremely slower than the prior bios. I see it also programmed the keyboard bios for some reason.
On a standard system settings the kb repeat rate to the high end produces approx 30characters/sec, now its more like 10 if you are lucky.
Has anyone else struck this problem at all? |
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Andy Fisher
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Nov 10, 2005 13:18:22 GMT
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Yes, it's been addressed and a new BIOS should be out sometime before the end of the year. |
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Michael Gibbs
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Nov 10, 2005 18:29:17 GMT
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Excellent to hear Andy. Its nice to see some good information from you on this issue. To date the laptop has been an excellent piece of equipment and the only problem ive had is the network connection but had the system board replaced to solve that problem.
Happy to be a beta tester if ya like....hint hint... |
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Giovanni Zaccolo
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Nov 11, 2005 02:23:08 GMT
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Andy, nice to read from you - take the opportunity to ask you about 6220 - any update about release of the BIOS for fan operation?
Thanks |
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Andy Fisher
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Nov 11, 2005 08:19:47 GMT
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I don't know when it will be released to the web but it is code complete and in functional test. |
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Giovanni Zaccolo
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Nov 14, 2005 02:01:04 GMT
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Thanks Andy for the update and for the great work.
I expect that the BIOS will work similar to the ones for 8xxx and 6120, i.e. having as main features:
- fan always on at low speed (only on AC or also on battery? I think always on also on battery would be better)- lower than currently
- smooth start/stop
My comments: so far, the 6220 runs basically with fans always on on AC and it is a little noisy: not extremely noisy (on he other side even the HD makes a dinstinct whistle), but in an empty room it tend to "distract" you if you are doing a work that requires concentration. So it would suffice a sightly lower speed, but not too much lower, just sufficient to reduce the noise and keep a constant low whoosh. (I think that the current noise disturbs because of its high frequency, probably a few Hz lower would be much less noticeable) On the other side, a speed too low would cause the cut-in of higher speed too often, which in my opinion would be worse.
I am sure that HP reknown experts (I believe that 6220 is the No. 1 of its category) already included the above in their design, however, I liked to provide my feelings.
Take care |
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Giovanni Zaccolo
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Nov 14, 2005 06:07:15 GMT
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Well, whoosh is not the correct word, pls forget it, "rustle" is more appropriate. |
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Andre Pearce
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Nov 14, 2005 10:27:15 GMT
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When will the new BIOS for the HP nc6120 notebook be released? I have 40 of them and the keyboard repeat rate is very slow. |
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Philip Soucacos
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Nov 17, 2005 16:56:18 GMT
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To Andy Fisher: Is there a Bios update coming for the nx6125? I know it is a Turion cpu and not a Pentium M, but I think it would benefit from updated trip points.
Thanks |
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Andy Fisher
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Nov 17, 2005 18:37:56 GMT
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Well, I continue to state 61xx keyboard fix before the end of the year.
Still don't know 62xx release dates. I'll try again and check for approx release dates.
6125 AMD systems have a totally different cooling algorithm that we don't see a problem with, conseqently, no update. |
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Ashim
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Nov 18, 2005 11:43:41 GMT
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Dear All,
Well I finally baught the nx8220.
No one should have a doubt about the fan issue here. Even after updating the BIOS, the fan keeps going on and off while doing normal tasks like writing emails or for e.g. now that I am typing this response. I checked the task manager, no real activity there.
In addition, there is a very distinct hard disk whining noise as well which is equally or I would say more distracting when concentrating on some task.
Last but not the least, yes there is a also a distinct high ptiched noise related to Bluetooth, but surprisingly it comes on after working on the computer for about 2-3 hours. And contrary to what others mentioned here by others, this sound dies the moment you switch on teh bluetooth device, but the noise starts immediately after even if teh bluetooth device is on. I haven't yet sued Jan's solution (with Centrino Hardware control) so I cannot say.
I am not personally happy with all these issues. Don't know if Andy has fixes for the hard drive issue. Andy please advise.
Well Andy surely is helping everyone out but it seems HP engineers got to improve on the hardware part for sure.
disappointed buyer
Ashim |
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giovanni z
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Nov 21, 2005 02:38:00 GMT
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Ashim, having just bought your mx8220, maybe you have to install the new BIOS?
Relevant to nc6220, for whom is it concerned: there is a new BIOS in the HW and SW page: is it relevant to the fan operation issue? It does not specify anything, even though it seems to be related to other (external LCD screen?). Is a further BIOS for nc6220 going to hit the web?
Thanks |
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Michel B.
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Dec 6, 2005 09:14:09 GMT
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Dear all,
I have encountered similar issues with my NX5000 notebook (1 year old, BIOS F.0D, pentium M Banias 1.6 Ghz). It seems that sudden increases in CPU load, and consequent speedstepping, lead to jumps in temperature. The temperature rises about 10 - 20 degrees for a second (or two), and then falls again when CPU load diminishes. The fan is activated on these spikes in a rather disturbing way (also depending on temperature).
My question: will there also be a BIOS update for the NX5000, as there was for the 6000 and 8000 series?
Kind regards,
Michel |
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Jogi
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Dec 6, 2005 12:34:40 GMT
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Michel B, that's something I've been asking for a long time too, but never got an answer.
Since I haven't got any answer from HP personnel (Andy in this case) I've let myself to believe that there isn't any plans to include this new CPU throttling policy to any of older nc/nx 5/6/8000 series, even though it is really annoying "feature" in these models.
That 5 C rise in those CPU temperature limits would alone help a lot, and I just can't see any reasons why they can't include that in those models too.
Apparently we just have to think twice next time when getting HP laptops - otherwise the models I've had (nx5000, nc6000 and currently nc8000) have been good to use. For some of us the noise just is important issue. |
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Michel B.
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Dec 7, 2005 10:30:36 GMT
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Jogi,
The fan noise is also important to me. The fan seems to be asking for attention, when I want to work concentrated. Moving the mouse while reading a pdf file or scrolling through a website with pictures makes the fan go crazy.
I agree with you that the HP notebook are good to use. The notebook is nearly perfect (lots of features, stable).
I can imagine there are more people out there experiencing the same, but not knowing what to do with it. I surfed the internet for quite some time, before I found this forum. In that case they, and maybe HP in the long run, might benefit from a solution.
I am not a computer expert, though I was wondering if it would be possible to install the latest NX6110 BIOS on the NX5000. Maybe a modified version would do the trick?
I would appreciate if e.g. Andy could help us out on this one.
Thanks in advance!
Michel |
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Andy Fisher
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Dec 7, 2005 18:17:13 GMT
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It's complicated. Once a system leaves engineering and into sustaining, I have no influence. |
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giovanni z
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Dec 9, 2005 11:52:29 GMT
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Has anyone implemented the BIOS F.0E dated 24 Oct 05 into her/his nc6220? Is this BIOS relevnt to the LCD table only, or does it also include the revised fan operation criteria?
Thanks |
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Eric Morin
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Dec 11, 2005 18:05:13 GMT
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Hi there
I admit this is not a solution for everybody, but I'm using Centrino Harware Control to lower the voltage on the processor and control heat. For example, my Pentium M 760 can run at 0.716 volts at 800 Mhz, from the default 0.988 volts. It keeps the processor cooler, and uses less power. I also run in "max battery" mode when I'm just surfing or reading a PDF/Word document. This mode forces the proc to always run at its lowest speed (800 Mhz in my case). The result: the fan never starts, and you get a few more minutes of battery power as a bonus!
This "solution" involves no risk to the processor, but some may not like to play with such things. But if you do want to look it up, do a search in Google for "pentium m undervolting". |
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Edward Polak
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Dec 12, 2005 03:56:12 GMT
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The undervolting tutorial has been mentioned Aug. 16th. I can recommend it. |
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Les L
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Jan 1, 2006 11:12:59 GMT
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Wow, this is one looong thread. I can say the people are highly polarized when it comes to noise and battery runtime.
I happened upon this thread when looking for answers for an unrelated *noise* issue that at first thought was a fan but turns out to be my LCD display.
In my quest for solutions, I flashed the BIOS of my nc6220 to F.0F which in fact does also address some fan issues.
This is a new laptop for me, displacing my old N610c and by comparison, the fan is much quieter. I am hopeful that I will get better runtime out of the battery as well. On my 610, I had a second multibay battery but that is not available for the 6220. I realize that there is a travel battery addon but liked that the multibay battery did not add bulk. I have yet to travel with this one so the battery runtime is yet to be determined.
I tried the three utilities mentioned in this thread but on this 6220, none of them provide any fan details. It does appear to run constantly regardless of temp. |
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Les L
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Jan 1, 2006 13:25:05 GMT
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OK, in retrospect, I left out a lot of detail. Oh, and I missed Andy's short note about MobileMeter's TZ4 being percent of fan speed. The noise of the fan is drowned out by the buzzing of the LCD and it seemed that everytime I put my ear to the fan, it was running.
With the F.0F BIOS, MM shows the fan turning on at 50 (speed 40%) and off at 45. CHC confirms the 4th temp trip as 50.
Having the power scheme on Portable/Laptop while on AC, the temp hovers between 43 and 53 whilst reading this thread and replying. SpeedStep seems to have only two speeds, 800 and 1.73. I do not have the BIOS set to run the fan always on AC but am considering changing it. I have not played with lowering voltages. I'm not sure how close my temps are to the norm and since there are so many factors, it is hard to compare.
At work, this laptop sits on the newer style replicator and is thus elevated for good airflow. My old 610 on the other hand sits on the old advanced replicator that tends to impede airflow and I've often contemplated cutting a hole through it where the intake sits. As it is now, the bearings are cooked on the 610 and it is slated to go back to HP for a new fan.
At home, when this laptop is not in my lap, it sits on a wicker side table. By comparison to the 610, this 6220 is much more comfortable sitting in my lap. I am always careful to not let my leg block the intake but the 610 had a real hotspot on the left and invariably my left leg would end up nearer to the centre. |
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Flemming_Hansen
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Jan 12, 2006 04:10:06 GMT
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Even after the bios upgrade the fan on my nx6110 with a celeron m stays on almost all the time.
Pretty annoying so i installed RMClock and when i set "Enter C4 on C3 command" in the Advanced tab it's able to drop the cpu temperature to about 45C making the fan stop for around 15 min before having to spin up for a short time.
This also increases the battery life from around 2 hours to 3 hours. I don't understand why it's not set to C4 from the factory as is does'nt seem to affect performance in any serios way. |
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july lesev
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Jan 12, 2006 04:46:52 GMT
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first time i read this thread, i was wondering, what the .... is the problem with the fan. my nx6110 was quit and cool...
(p.s. i was looking for information, about fan issue after resume from standby)...
then i have to change location, and my nx6110 is on other desk than before... and guess what? i notice the fan problems...
all i want to say is that fan and temperature issues are very strong dependant of the surface on which the laptop lay...
the previous surface (without fan and temperature issues) was 'synthetic' and my be more smooth (very low jagged, a dot-like) than the present surface...
which is furniture
i have try to run the processor with on demand governor (e.g. when is idle, the frequency is about 161 Mhz, and when 100% in use, is 1.3GHz, with some (7) steps beetwen these states )
the difference was very low regarding temperature and fan...
when was on idle very low decrease of the tepmerature
but when switching to higher frequency, there was a peak in temperature and in fan speed and noise (smoothed by the gradual increase of fan speed) |
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giovanni z
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Jan 20, 2006 06:44:23 GMT
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I have finally installed the BIOS F.0F in my nc6220 and now it works really GREAT. The 6220 is now definitely a PEAK LEVEL product.
I want to thank first of all Andy, with his HP team. And also thank all the worldwide friends who with this forum have given a decisive contribution to this improvement.
Take care everybody
Giovanni |
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berk ozdirek
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Jan 28, 2006 20:23:40 GMT
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This topic is beyond imagination. I couldn't find a suitable and alive looking topic than this one.
I wonder if there may be a dv4000 model solution for the so called "fan on all the time" problem. I got my dv4000 yesterday and since my older laptop was nx7010 series, and its fan was virtually not existing
no fan almost never. So I expected this same no fan rule from HP and bought my dv4000, for now I am a bit disappointed
"visrtually no fan" is the thing I thought HP was best at.
Although my temp is 39 (lowered the voltage) the fan never stops. Case shows 55.
However once, I accidentally pulled the AC out, and then replugged, the fan somehow got quiter for about 20 seconds, and reached to same annoying level again. I wonder if its the x700 causing the fan on all the time, but its not reasonable, cpu load is %2, laptop is idle, and yet the fan never stops. As I understand from this topic this may be solved by a bios update, , wonder if this is the case? |
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Fausto Lopez
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Feb 16, 2006 14:52:02 GMT
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Berk,
I am definitely in the exact position as you. The fan is really annoying. This happens everytime I have my DV4000 running on AC power. When on battery, it comes on and off every 5 minutes or so.
I haven't called HP, yet. I SHOULD. Do you think they'd be willing to exchange for a new, SILENT fan laptop? I really hope so.
What are you plans to resolve this problem?
As I'm sure is the case with you, I was expecting a silent fan all the way through. I've been putting up with this since November when I got the DV4000 w/ ATI X700. |
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Joe Coleman
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Mar 23, 2006 16:54:01 GMT
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I read through this whole forum hoping at the end their would be resolution. :)
No such luck. After all of that research it seems they didn't migrate the fixes into the BIOS for my machine. There isn't a bios upgrade for the nc6000 since the middle of last year which I already have.
Also here is my theory.
While I was reading this entire thread I noticed that my fan got more and more quite. By the time I got to the end the fan had completely stopped. When I exited out of the forum the fan immediately started back up. I think the fan realized I was close to a solution and until it knew the coast was clear it hid it's ugly head. :) |
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Rainald
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Mar 23, 2006 20:29:17 GMT
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Peter Leban
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Mar 24, 2006 02:47:26 GMT
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At the moment still no clever idea how to fix this problem? Does this problem (lots of fan activity) happen only to HPs with Celeron processors or also to other brands (dell, ibm and others)? |
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Edward Polak
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Mar 24, 2006 03:13:11 GMT
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No, it also happens to other CPUs, but the Celeron (and Sempron) have the disadvantage of not being able to switch gears.
The world is full of noisy fans (not referring to human beings) of different brands. |
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Jon Swanson
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Mar 24, 2006 10:21:03 GMT
N/A: Question Author
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Since purchasing my nc6120 I have seen other laptops with the same or faster CPU that do not have this problem. Some do, some don't. Some are smaller, faster and lighter and don't have this problem. It depends on the choices that the manufacturer made when they built the system.
Unfortunately HP chose to build this system with a very small heat pipe and heat sink (see my picture near the beginning of this thread) that has almost no thermal mass, so the slightest change in CPU usage triggers a fan increase, and there is almost no way for it to get rid of heat passively.
Some people have tried to solve this problem by reducing the CPU voltage, the speed, etc., but why should they have to even attempt this? Because HP won't fix it properly in hardware or software or whatever it takes.
I want performance when my applications call for it - I don't want to have to hamstring my system with odd voltage and performance reductions. I expect the fan to run when I am sustaining a high level of CPU usage. I do not expect it to run when I am typing or reading a static page, or every time I simply scroll to a new page, or when I am doing NOTHING for that matter. I have my nc6120 on my desk, on a stand with a hole cut exactly where the fan intake is, and the fan runs 100% of the time.
The fan runs when I am traveling on battery as well, and the battery life is very poor. I like the physical design and features, but this is sadly overcome by the fan and battery problems, and I am very disappointed with the lack of a solution. |
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Jogi
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Mar 24, 2006 12:28:30 GMT
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I have given up hope of HP fixing the issue for older models.
But there might be still hope for all of us who are annoyed by the fan noise and behavior. Author of the Notebook Hardware Control is apparently developing ACPI fan control feature to his quite useful tool, and it should be completed by the next (major) release of NHC (or at least that's what is said on the program).
Currently NHC has fan control for some Samsung and Asus models, but apparently the upcoming ACPI fan control would support all modern laptops.
Those of you, who aren't familiar with NHC (formerly known as Centrino Hardware Control, mentioned many times on this thread), visit the website http://www.pbus-167.com/chc.htm . It's quite useful tool (even without the fan control ;) for the laptop users. |
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Andrei Ristea
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Mar 25, 2006 15:02:05 GMT
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I have recently acquired a HP nx6110 laptop model since (code EK201EA) it suited perfectly my needs as a university student. I must say I am impressed with its offerings and the shotcomings (like tha fan issue) depicted here don't seem all that obvious to me. Maybe it is because this is a rather new model (with other specs, maybe the cooling is a bit better), who knows? It comes pre-installed with BIOS version F.0C, by the way.
Is there a Linux version or Linux Softpaq's available?
Another question would be if there is a menu which allows me to set the video memory from the BIOS menu.
And this is about it. Any ideas, please? |
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Rainald
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Mar 25, 2006 17:32:12 GMT
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Andrei,
welcome to the forum world!
As you are new:
Let's keep to the topic. The therad is long enough ...
Pls be so kind as to open a new thread and ask your questions on Linux and the BIOS there.
Rainald |
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Peter Leban
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Apr 3, 2006 17:45:29 GMT
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Even if this topic is so long...
Have to say that I am very very dissapointed with HP in general. I've had mine in repair because of bad contact in lcd. But I really took care when opening and closing it. OK, it happens. When I took it to repair to HP service partner (still have warranty...) they replaced lcd and inform me that I can get it. I come to them, open notebook and it does not start... OK, I leave it for another week when they inform me that motherboard had to be replaced (??). I get it, now it works. But I have a strange feeling that not only motherboard was replaced. My usb connectors are different (more force is needed to plug and unplug mouse or anything else).
To keep with this topic - now I have even more fan activity... Right now I only write this, listen to music and have about 5 % cpu usage. Fan is always on, no stop. From the very first beginning I have it raisen from the table so there is lots of air below notebook.
I do not think this is normal.
If this is a support forum is it possible to get any wise information of what to do in this case? Can I go and return my notebook?? It is 7 months now.
Regards to you all. |
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Flurin Meng
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May 30, 2006 03:01:20 GMT
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I have a HP-Compaq nx8220 and my fan is always an as well... I've installed a littel program called speedfan to check how hot it gets inside of the notebook... it gets freaken HOT! The local inside temperature is usually arround 60° Celsius and speedfan even shows me some other temperaturesensor that are always around 80° Celsius... no wonder the fan is always on... haven't contact HP yet, but I guess I need to do that now. My nb gets enoying loud because of the fan...
Hope they can fix my problem without sendin in my nb |
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chriswalkerusa
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Jun 24, 2006 07:25:43 GMT
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I too had this problem on an NC6000 following a hard drive replacement. The PC internal PC support group changed my Power profile under control panel to "the company standard". When I went to Control Panel -> Power Options and set the profile back to Portable/Laptop, my problem wnt away and the fan throttles only at times when necessary. |
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Michel Vasic
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Dec 19, 2006 23:09:14 GMT
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Hello,
just wonder why you don't mention OS used, and if you run Windows 2000, if you installed Speedstep and if it works properly.
On the next model, Nc6320, that comes with dual core, we had to disable Dual Core in the BIOS to have speedstep running, and it made a HUGE difference.
So what about the OS used ?
Michel |
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Isabelle W
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Jul 4, 2007 20:29:40 GMT
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Finally, about 6 months ago my nx6110 "died" only 1,5 years old. Probably the motherboard (concluded after speaking with HP support here in Sweden). Since the cost to repair would be ridicuolus compared to replace it, I chose the latter. And sorry to say, after two laptops from HP that not lived to expectation in terms of life expectancy, and for the nx6110 the so anoying fan I have now found another brand.
My current laptop is very similar in configuration to my nx6110 but the fan only starts when there is heavy workload going on. Its so nice to have a quiet computer again. |
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Jon Swanson
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Jul 5, 2007 11:09:16 GMT
N/A: Question Author
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That has been my experience too Isabelle. I finally gave up and switched to another brand. Very similar configuration, but it is silent unless I give it a heavy load for a long time. Even then, the fan is not as loud as the fan on my HP was the computer was idle. What a relief! |
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bert cheyne
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Jul 27, 2007 19:15:19 GMT
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Hi I accidently shoved the power lead into a broken usb slot (plastic bit missing) which made a burning smell and a warm orange glow with some smoke when i tried to switch it on. I stripped the nx laptop and found a burnt 5 pin component next to the usb socket. After expecting this to be some sort of regulator to the usb as there are 2 of these and 2 plugs and cant find a replacement, i desoldered it. The laptop now works minus one usb socket and now the fan is constantly switching on and off and revving at different speeds according to the proccessor load. It never changed speeds before , it was on or off only after getting hot. I assume ive also damaged some chip that controls the fan but i would expect it to not work at at all or be permently on? |
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Michael Serious
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Aug 29, 2007 11:09:28 GMT
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I had same problem with my nx6110.Fan always on, cpu temp about 75C. I try to reinstall win, change ACPI setting, but no success. I tried to clean fan by vacuum cleaner. Simply put notebook on back and by tube from vacuum cleaner take up the dust.
Now it works much better.
Try it! |
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Jeff1
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Oct 18, 2007 14:41:33 GMT
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I ran upon this thread today, I have been looking for a "cure" for several years now, zx5000 and the thing always runs at 57c to 60c,and the fan is ALWAYS ON. Killed my battery within the first year. |
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Samoila Mircea
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Oct 18, 2007 15:21:06 GMT
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zx5000 features a desktop pentium 4 processor... The temperature is normal for your configuration.
This is a separate issue so if you have ani more questions please open a new thread. |
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realdexter
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Oct 18, 2007 18:05:04 GMT
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Bog Duck
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Nov 4, 2007 15:41:01 GMT
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In my nx9010 I replaced thermal grease with fresh one and switched big fan (with two heatpipes) with small fan (one heatpipe) by cross-connecting them to sockets on motherboard. It required some wire extension. It's enough to switch the red wire because black is ground and yellow seems to be not used. The hird, back side fan left unchanged. Together with setting power management to 'laptop' or 'max battery' profile all this gives very pleasant behaviour of cooling system. Now smaller fan works quietly depending on processor load, sometimes going to higher rpm which is also acceptable. Big fan turns on when processor temp. exceeds 60deg.C which is rare, and usually turns off after short time. I wonder why HP designers did not discover such improvement before. |
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Barry Fitzharris
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Nov 29, 2007 04:59:54 GMT
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I am also seeing this on a nc6320! Fan is constantly on and it is driving me mental. I had vista installed,ran speedfan and it was showing temps around 80 degrees C. Ive gone back to xp, fan is still running but I havent installed speedfan yet. |
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sweller
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Dec 6, 2007 17:22:26 GMT
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I had a bunch of these models with the same issue. The fix i have is this. There is a wire that connects to the fan under the keyboard. The wire has gotten pinched and it shorts out the temp sensor so it runs all the time. Move the wire from the location and it should work fine. Maybed a design flaw |
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Jeff1again
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Dec 6, 2007 17:54:50 GMT
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Samoila Mircea said my issue is a separate issue, are you basing this reply on model numbers instead if the issue? My fan stays on all the time, I thought thats what was the topic being discussed. |
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Alex Stropp
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May 3, 2008 20:37:27 GMT
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I have a nc6125 and in the BIOS I have a the option to enable or disable the processor fan from running all the time. It is under the far right menu...I think it is called "devices." Hope this helps. |
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Gareth Day
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Sep 5, 2008 11:22:04 GMT
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At work I've just replaced a motherboard on an NC6120, something I've done about 10 times before with no issues. This time though the fan always runs, even when the laptop is switched off when on mains (docking station). I've checked the 'Run fan when on A/C) is disabled, yet it still does it.
Any ideas? I have a user that is getting more than a little annoyed with it. |
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