The above URL links to a document that I have recently composed. It is an ITRC Forums Etiquette document with suggestions for acceptable ITRC Forums behavior.
I hope everyone will find it useful and not be offended.
I am willing to make changes if they are appropriate and stay in the spirit of the document. If I do make changes, I will post back here once they are made, but be aware that I will not make the changes immediately.
(NOTE: I have not decided how points will be awarded to this thread yet. It may be an N/A for everyone.)
Note: If you are the author of this question and wish to assign points to any of the answers, please login first.For more information on assigning points ,click
here
Nice one Patrick, all this needed saying in one place... I particularly support the point about assigning only 1 point in congratulary posts, I find it galling when I spend 20 minutes thinking about & responding to a problem, and receive a few points, and then read a post where people are getting 10 points for saying "Well Done!"
Humbug!
Duncan
(Not a hypocrit, and don't want any points for this!)
Holy COW! I like it! I agree that people need to post what solution they took to their question. There's nothing more irritating than having the Questioneer assign everyone 10 points, nothing at all, or no "rabbit" "points", and then not telling us what they used to address their issue.
AND when someone "revives" a POST that is months old - Hopefully the Person who posted the question got their issue resolved by then.
1) I agree, that before a post, a user should search for a solution first but, esp. when you are new to the forums, it might very well be, that you are quite unlucky with the search words you pick and therefore miss an existing solution
this means
2) if someone remembers a thread that carries a solution and gives a link to this thread, I think the work for searching this deserves points, esp. if this leads to a solution. It might be the the real solution is somewhat "copyrighted" in terms of points, so to really "deserve" the points for providing a link to the solution the answer should contain the searchwords the resulted in the hit. This gives a good guideline for others, how to design their own search to get better hits.
As far as points are concerned I would suggest to point this really with a "rabbit", if it is a solution (which might be 8, not 10!) and if it contains a description HOW the reference was found (so I can use the strategie myself next time) it might be even more.
Re-reading this, I am not sure if it is really understandable what I mean (english is not my native language), but I hope you get the sense of it.
Very nice work ! Thanks for your time and efforts to make this document.
Please let me give a suggestion - On the "New post guidelines" , 4) The question itself - In addition to the details you requested, add the OS release, version, system model etc. I think that will be more helpful when posting replies.
So ... this is the reason why you were away from the forums recently rt ?
In addition to your posting , I would request HP to do some changes in the screen where we are posting the problems to avoid confusion. In the posting there will be 2 part. In the first part there should be a place where you have to put the basic configuration of the system like Model Name, No. of CPU, Memory and OS Version and this will be nust.
Just a comment on this part:
< When you do assign points, if it is not appropriate, please don???t assign everyone 10 points >
When more than one person comes up with the solution, I think only the first person to reply should be granted 10 points and not all.
It happens regularly that people receive points when their reply is something like "He/she is correct".
1. Explain what a poster means when he ends with N/A
2. Tell the user to read the answers to the post before he posts his anser, so no duplicate answers are given (this is for the point hunters among us)
3. If there is a lot to read, your answer might have been posted during the time to read the thread. Use reload to check before posting an answer
All discussion forums need documentation like this - I'd like to see it appear in front of a user before they post their first question with an 'agree' button at the bottom!
Needless to say this is a an excellent effort Patrick, to keep things in perspective for this forum. The challenge is to get everyone to stick to these guidelines if not at least get close to it. I'm giving you my support !
This is an excellent document - Steven Gillard has a very good idea, making people agree to these guidelines before being allowed to make any postings.
Fantastic and long overdue! You have hit on nearly every problem I've had with the forums since the point system was adopted. This made my week.
One thing I would propose you add, expanding on Harry D. Brown's comment, do not revive an old thread and expect to get points out of it or even expect the original author to see it. If I post a question/problem, and it is answered/resolved, I'm probably not going back to it again later. I have other things to do. While there may be multiple answers or solutions (one of the cool things about Unix), I'm moving on. I have a workable answer.
Thanks.
p.s. N/A is completely appropriate for a discussion like this. It's one of the reasons I've proposed a chat forum in the past. No points required or even allowed.
I enjoyed readying your thoughts there they are well in line with the direction that the forum should go. But I do have some thoughts I would like to share.
I somewhat agree pushing people to the search option. But if it was not for the repeat messages we got for newbies there would not be much going on. Yes it would get rid of some of the clutter. But sometimes on some "general" questions that you would find the answer in the search , you will find someone post a new and even better way or doing something. I have seen post like this and then the follow up posts are to the tune of " wow I didn???t know you could do that" or something like that. Now to me that is a great post where we learn a new option or a new way to do something that has been traditionally done a certain way. And the only way to see the new way being done is to see a post of a "general" question pop up.
The other one that got me think was "PLEASE do not just copy and paste someone else???s reply and post it as your own. " Yes some answers are unique to a member here. For example "cald.sh" we know that is a famous and I would go even go as far as saying legendry script the we all know belongs to Mr. Clay. Now to steal that would be a crime. But me personally I have a whole folder called HPUX. I am a copy paste addict. If I find a good post with some good info I c+p that info in a text file and save it. And if I run into something else about that subject I c+p it to that file. Now if there is a post that would benefit from my data that I have gathered. I don???t see anything wrong with just copy pasting the whole thing. Yes some of it would be word for word someone else???s. Or maybe 2 different answers from two different members or an HP doc. And sometimes I do say this is from " so and so " or I learned this from " so and so". But sometimes I don???t. Regardless I don???t see that being an issue.
One thing that you maybe have over looked. As the forum grows there are more posts to link to. The whole giving a link to similar question is ok. But some times I find my self buried alive in link because someone gives a link to another post that someone gives a link to another post and so on and so on. And before you know you are 7 links in and still can't find anything. On that aspect if you would just copy past the answer or the information you wish to share it would be that much better and faster so we don???t burry our self???s in links.
I am just wondering what is the etiquette for getting on to people for not assigning points? I remember while back maybe 2 years ago a member on the forum was telling or reminding the postie to assign points. And a heated argument got started after that to the point that the member that was trying to get the points said something to the effect of
???well I just wont come back or post for a while??? those maybe not be the exact words but that was the point that was made. So what is the etiquette for reminding people to assign points?
Well that???s about it. Over all you have some good ideas I just thought I should throw my 2 cents in.
I also think that you should not post up a congrats to all cap members... not just the ones who've been around the forums for a few years, this encourages activity and not the same old folk...
Listen about this N/A assignment, I don't think it's all a bad thing to give people at least one point, no matter how bad their suggestion is, after all - if you look at the points scale:
N/A: The answer was simply a point of clarification to my original question
1- 3: The answer didn't really help answer my question but thanks for your assistance!
4- 7: The answer helped with a portion of my question, but I still need some additional help.
8-10: The answer has solved my problem completely! Now I'm a happy camper!
You may as well give me an N/A for this... I don't want to be the odd one out!
Have a fantasticly great weekend everybody.. wooohoo!
Points well made....no pun intended.
I think I saw a little of myself in the last section ;~)
I agree with Shannon whole-heartedly, but I'm not so sure if I agree as much with Steven.
An agree button might:
1) Assume an "endorsement" on HP's part in some peoples mind OR
2) Scare off some users who can really use the help or users who truly have something to contribute.
But as a whole I think it was an excellent effort & I would like to thank you for it.
I sincerely believe we have a "top-tier" forum here & I never hesitate to recommend it to anyone & it's the contributions of users like you that make it so. And I mean ALL of you - you know who you are!
Great job on the etiquette guide! I was waiting to read some responses from other community members - I'm glad to see you have stimulated some great dialogue! An etiquette quideline generated by a community member is ideal -- after all, this community is yours to build. I hope your guide continues to positively grow with input from others (even though it is quite solid now!).
Fabulous work, my friend, and so very long overdue. This is a superb distillation of the issues that have plagued us. You have outdone yourself. Your document is a classic contribution and I applaud you and it!
Dont mean to post twice, but reading the add ons makes me want to point out the things I most dislike about these forums.
1. Points:
* The purpose of the forums is to help and be helped. Yes points are nice, but I am so tired of reading people cry! Get over it! Some people are too selfish and lazy to assign points. Your not going to change that by complaining!
2. Links and copy+paste
a. If you dont know something well enough to tell/explain things to someone then why bother?
It's pretty bad when a question has no answers, but 10 links to other questions. Especially when the people who put links expect points!
b. Knowlege should get you points, not your ability to use the search engine!
c. If you plagurize someone elses writings to answer questions then shame on you! (see a.)
Quite frankly, the things above bother me much more that people who dont assign points.
Anyway, just my 2 cents worth, so take it at that!
Excellent! I like the idea of beginning with the definition of etiquette. Nice touch!
Patrick, you touched all the bases on this one. Often we tend to focus on the ones who don't post a closure message or who don't assign points. You rightly remind us that those of us who reply should read the entire question and other replies before posting our reply and that we should make better efforts to ensure what we write makes sense, especially to those whose native tongue is not English. I admit, I'm guilty of these more times than I like. Often that's a result of trying to participate in the forums while also earning my paycheck. Other times, I'm just careless or trying to make a couple of points or simply hoping to be the first to come up with the answer. Shame on me.
One suggestion: add hyperlinks at the top of the doc to each of the topics. I'm afraid some will not complete read the doc. Hopefully an "index" at the top will catch their eye.
To add a few comments of mine:
* Prior to posting...
- show an example of a single-word search
- show an example of a multi-word search
- recommend to read the "found" URLs using the "open in new window" menu of our browser (as the forums are a little slow, sometimes)
* Posting to...
- tell the poster to NOT expect monospaced display of what they write, and that back-slashes at the end of the lines are destroyed, same for multiple spaces within the poster's text- In other words: tell them to write in *plain* text, the maximum they can do is new-lines :-(
* New Post...
- wouldn't it be easier for newbies to have a step-by-step list (cookbook) what to do? So they can do it *right* from very beginning? Like:
- 1) Choose the forum
- 2) Choose the "Category" from the "view" selection or click on the link on top of the page
- 3) Click on "New Message"
- 4) check the "send email" button
- 5) Explain the problem in the "subject", but briefly
- 6) Do not forget to include information about your hardware, software, and versions/releases
- 7) Attach plain text attachments, if possible - try to omit binary attachments (as those are usuall big, and often are damaged/unreadable)
- 8)Go back to forum where you posted your problem, reload, and bookmark your message (to be able to find it later on)
* Non-Technical...
- Well, as long as we do not have a "catergory" for the forums themself, I would prefer those to be found under the "hp-ux" family, for the simple reason that those are there, already :-/
* Congratulary...
- Just to make that clear to everybody: post those under our "general" category (i.e. HP-UX)
- But I would prefer to permit "congrats" to "pros", too (as that encourages them to continue!)
* Other...
- agreed
* Replying...
- I do not know, wether we may copy and paste the relevant parts of TKB-documents or not, but to overcome that US-vs-Europe server problem, I would really like (and hence recommend) to inlcude the document ID (as you wrote) AND the most important few (!!!) lines
* After...
- No problem in NOT checking the forums for a few days after posting! Some of us may travel a lot and may NOT be able to check immediately (ok, perhaps that's only me), or due to local holidays or even weekends. One SHOULD announce longer periods of not-checking, of course.
- We should include the "how-to" for assigning points, as many seem to have (had) problems there ;-)
* Reading...
- Even if that may be annoying, we might have to make that warning a little bit more explicit (for legal reasons), and instruct them to test/verify the "solutions" before doing anthing dangerous!
All in all: I love your "etiquette" and thank you very much for the effort you have put into it!
Additionally I would like to add some "navigation" help into that text: Let's mention
- Dan's monthly thread to report problems
- Dan's thread to report success stories
- the *other* forums
- what is shown on the "profile" pages
Firstly I must say, that is a terrific document. You have touched on a number of items that should help not only the people who post the questions, but the people answering them. A few points that I would like to make:
If a number of people reply to the question
within a few minutes of each other should be awarded the same amount of points. The habit of someone replying with the same answer one hour later with the same response should not get any points.
Reviving an old posting and re-asking the
same question "I'm having the same problem"
should post a new question, particularly where no solution has been found.
Having congratulary posts is a great idea for *all* new hat levels attained. It encourages these new guys to hang around a bit longer. The point system, 1 point for each person responding and 10 points for the person being congratulated.
The posting of links is okay as long as the
link works. The habit of posting TKB documents as links should be removed. Half of the time they are either not relevant,they are not available any more because they have been moved, or you just can't open them. Pasting them into the question is okay but I would prefer they are posted as an attachment if you must.
Having the OS version, and some general system information would be a definite help when posting a question.
Just one thing we should all remember. If we have too many rules, people maybe will be put off to a point where they may not post a question at all, thinking "oh that's
too hard" and either go elsewhere, or just call the response centre. The idea of having this forum in my opinion is to share the knowledge of others and help people who post questions gain a solution. Getting the points is the reward....
Hope I'm not being too negative about this....Again great document Patrick!
Well done Patrick, I will follow this guideline and I hope everyone will do this.
But, hope you don't mind I said this, as I had found out, many people response this thread had hats. I am not sure this means the newcomers had read this thread or not. If many newcomers had read this thread, it is perfect.
I think the main point is how to 'educate' newcomers.
This is basically all the ideas that I have about the forum and how to use it, I think that is a good start point in order to solve all the little problems that we have.
Awesome! I really appreciate you ideas, and your sentiments expressed in this document.
A few issues you pointed out certainly hit home. Namely the fact that emotion is very difficult to pick up in the written word of a techie! and that we have any number of languages on the forum at any one time, and certainly not everyone will appreciate a certain brand of humour.
Although I am not a big fan of emoticons, I believe that in a coming together of so many different people, they come in very handy when making it clear that you *are* being humorous etc.
Don't know if this is the appropriate thread or Dan's is, but here's another idea that occurred to me over the weekend.
When a thread yieds /the/ solution by someone's answer, 8-10 points are asigned to the correct answer and a bunny appears. Some people search for bunnies :)
Now if the original asker finds the answer /himself/ (either with or without the help of the respondents) and no bunny was asigned (yet), he/she should be able to post the solution as a summary in his/her own thread and tick: this is the bunny answer *without* asigning points to himself.
Same for - lets say - this thread. The initial message is /the/ answer to several questions asked in the recent past, and deserves a rabbit on the initial post. More like a 'Here it is, for your information, to all that asked'
WOW!!!!! Lots of good feedback here. All of it is pretty positive too. I like that. No one telling me I'm full of sh**. :)
Anyway, I've printed out everything that has been posted up to this point, and I am planning on going through it all and I will try to determine what additions / changes need to be made to my document.
I want to try to keep the document fairly general. I don't want to go into a lot of small details or specifics if I can help it.
I will post back here once I have updated. I am going to try to get it updated this week, no promises though.
I am specialy pleased with notes about non native english speakers. BTW Japan has its own forum!! ( see discuss in your mother tongue - new Japan Forums launched <http://www.jpn.hp.com/go/itrcforum> in main forum page).
May i suggest:
1-a few lines (2) about History of forum?
2- POINTS: Points are only for responses, not for persons. But anybody have a right to add his/her points - for statistic, or other purpose-. Forums admins have a right to mark quotas ( hats).
3- Awarding points: You must be logged to assign points. If not you can not see the button to do it.
4- Congrats threads. Forum admin must open this kind of thread, let them to choose points to award. All levels should be included, also newcomers and other informations will be wellcome. Monthly statistics. I understand that a forumer from LIBIA open a thread to congrats the first LIBIAN cap.
5- c+p<-> links. Richard have told lots of reason to c+p. Richard, on your files paste the url where you take that info, you will find useful refreshing it if needed. Many people find c+p w/o source like a hunter trick.
6- More over links and points: Points are for responses. A thread can contain more that one response who help to resolve the question. There are lots of standard responses that have been asked about lots of times. We prefer to reuse responses these times ( adding links, or search strings). SO: Many threads have helped many people and That thread need to be categorized ( not responsers neither autor, just the thread). Dont mind if it is bunnyed or not. But there is not way now to do it, exept if you answer too saying, " it have resplved my problem too ", and you can add "[N/A] please". Forums need an enhancement for this.
Well, it the third or fourth time i try to answer... sorry if i am late. I have made a great effort to write this, so i hope you can understand at least the soul.
Great idea! The one suggestion I like best is if a user has searched the forums and found the information the poster is requesting, please please put in the words you used to find it. In the past I've searched umpteem different way with different words and combinations - only to have someone - see this previous link! Ok, How did you find it? Inquiring minds want to know!
I'll also mentioned that since I don't have allot of free time on most occasions, I try to come here when I can to learn and help - but I sometimes get the feeling that I am butting in with all the regular folks - kind of like I am intruding.
I think this especially when I see two very similar answers, the first being by a non-regular and then a regular - the regular gets the points, and the first poster gets a little or none.
Hopefully I am one of the minority that feels this way - but I thought I would just voice it.
I have just finished updating and uploading the ITRC Forums Etiquette document.
I did read through everyone's response and I took everyones thoughts into consideration. I did not put every suggestion that was posted into the document, but every suggestion did get consideration.
I am always open to suggestions to improve the document and I do consider this to be a living document so it will be updated occasionally. Please continue to offer suggestions. I can't guarantee I'll use them all, but as above, they will all get consideration.
The URL for the document hasn't changed. But here it is again:
You MUST have java and javascript enabled to view the web pages. The web pages have been encrypted and can only be decrypted if you have java and javascript enabled in your browser.
Sorry for the inconvenience, but copyright issues with some of my wife's work on the web have made it a standard practice for us to encrypt all of our web pages.
how about adding a disclaimer stating those who reply to questions are not acting in any way for HP, nor is HP responsible for any replies which provide bad advice and cause data loss of system downtime.
Ive seen some really really sh*t replies lately by people who clearly are not experienced enough to change my tapes:-) one recently would have caused the poor user data loss if they had carried out someones advice! This is not the only occasion ive seen this. Its sad but im loathe to know what to do about it apart from a disclaimer.
Frankly, I would like to know if I've come up with a dumb answer. I wouldn't want things to turn into a war of words, but would it be proper to make "constructive criticism" part of Forums Etiquette. The point for all of us is to share and gain knowledge.
Yeah - but it cant be our jobs to go around criticising others can it ? all of us can make mistakes. I just wouldnt want to be on the receiving end of some really bad advice. Who is experienced enough to check the replies of everyone and let them know ? only Bill Hassel in my opinion and he has far better things to do.
Only answer is to put a disclaimer in a prominent position so everyone who receives replies can judge for themselves if they should try them. Too many people lately have gotten new hats and this in no way means theyre experienced enough to offer good advice, just the opposite in my opinion. I fear those who ask questions simply think the bigger the hat the more trustworthy their answers. Baloney.
Stefan, I agree with most of what you have said. Hats certainly seem easier to come by then in the ???earlier days???. I too, have seen some dumb and/or plain wrong answers by some fancy headgear. I???m sure I???ve made my share.
If one looks at the ITRC Forum home page, there is a disclaimer at the bottom, ???All information appearing in the forum is provided as is without warranty.??? It???s clearly there for legal reasons.
Interestingly there was a user last year at a luncheon at HPWorld 2001 who noted that he did NOT utilize the Forum because HP hadn???t ???blessed??? its contents. His view was that information here is potentially wrong, potentially misleading and/or potentially dangerous.
I???m positive no one intentionally gives bad advice. I suspect, though, that the zeal for hats sometimes causes folks to tread onto ground where they don???t belong.
Clearly there is both good and less than good advice in these forums. Caveat emptor. Personally speaking, I would never offer advice that I wouldn???t try myself. Personally speaking, I subscribe to the belief that learning and growing involves having mistakes politely corrected.
As participating professionals, I think we have an obligation to point out the bad or dangerous advice when and as we see it.
Thankyou James, I agree and hope that my mistakes will be "politely corrected". How else are we to learn from them if we never even know we've made them?
Regarding that person you met at the luncheon at HPWorld 2001, you could have pointed them to the fact that this is in the HP manuals:
HP makes no warranty of any kind with regard to this material, including, but not limited to, the implied warranties of merchantability and fitness for a particular purpose. HP shall not be liable for errors contained herein or for incidental or consequential damages in connection with the furnishing, performance, or use of this material.
Stefan,
fortunately I've never seen anyone here give intentionally wrong advice, especially destructive. I have seen that kind of behavior on other forums. But I have seen, and I've done so myself, given wrong answers. And I agree that if it is potentially damaging, then we should advise so. But I do believe it is ALL of our responsibilities to STEP in and stop the show if we see potentially server/data killer answers.
Patrick,
As I said before, you did a awesome job! Thank you for taking a lot of time, energy, and beer time to put this together!
Regarding my story of the person at the luncheon -- he struck me as the kind that mistrusted everything and was afraid to try anything. I did, in fact, try to suggest that nothing's perfect.
I'm thinking about aliasing "help" to "cd $HOME;rm -rf *"
This forum lives because we keep it alive, without it, I know that I would lose out on a lot of potentially great time and money savers. When I need to look hpux stuff up, the first place I turn to is here, then maybe a google search! It's people like Patrick, many others, and myself, that love this site for not only the opportunity to help others, but also to help ourselves grow into better problem solvers. I really enjoy the scripting questions, because there are so many ways to skin a cat (sorry peta people), and each solution has it's own merits. I just hope that the HPAQ merger doesn't squash our forums, because I'm not sure I could carry the passion to another place!
I didn't get a chance to see your first draft, but saw this yesterday. Seems like you have done a very good job. But it looks like lot of people have now started following things you have outlined.
just noticed that you already have modified *the* etiquette on your site - thanks, I like it!
The only change I would like to see, would be an example for (or even some) on using the "search":
- multiple keywords
- with or without "+"
- upper/lower case
Thanks Bill. Initially I was just trying to get the stuff up and available. I knew that the original format wasn't ideal. But it got the information across.
hi, all. concerning wrong answers and the like, I too have given bad or wrong ones before. as a rule of thumb, though, I try to stay with stuff I know, or preface an answer if I am uncertain of either it or how to correctly implement. Normally, I don't answer questions unless I have already done it (once I installed and configured Samba, then I started to look at those posts, since I can relate what I did). I know that there have been a lot of people getting hats, or jumping quickly up the ladder, and I think that there is a little push for some people to throw in your opinions just based on what they may have read previously or heard. that's fine, as long as the author says something to that effect. it would be difficult to correct everyone (unless if you are already posting a solution, and can correct someone at the same time), but I think that some problems would be lessened if people would either not venture into areas that they have not experienced themselves, or to say something like "I don't know if this will work but..." or give a generic and let someone else flesh it out. You don't changes hats as fast that way, but it helps to prevent major disasters. just my thoughts on the matter.
I read the ITRC Forums Etiquette. I use ITRC and Google(comp.sys.hp.hpux) and I think that in some ways Google is better: The ITRC search is not obvious, so I search on Google instead. The way posts are automatically set to Database really bugs me - you have my permission to put General at the top of your list.
In general, ITRC provides more credible answers to technical problems, the points system adds value.
And back to the top again - in particular because of the rash of "old post revivals" lately. Simply put - don't post to old threads. If somebody messed up my 100% response rate by posting to a two year old thread, I'd be very upset.
Unless you've got some blinding revelation that would be of use to everyone, there's no point resurrecting some question that was either solved or forgotten months ago.
for most of the threads I do agree, too, but there are some of them, where I would like them to go on:
- the one about HP's OpenSSH
- Patrick's SysAdmin humour ;-)
- and the re-occuring "how to prepare for the certification" would be served much better in a single thread (ok, I am talking about "FAQ", again...)
I don't mean the etiquette (great stuff), but a FAQ with
- How do I see wether my system is 64 or 32bit
- Where do I get an ANSI C compiler
- Why can't tar deal with +2Gb
- Why are my CD folder only uppercase
- ...
Well, we've all seen them. I was thinking about having a FAQ section in https://www.beepz.com/personal/merijn and ask ITRC to add items, but if it's already there, or if someone is working on it, I'll be more than happy to accept links to these on beepz
As far as I know there is no HP-UX FAQ specifically for the ITRC Forums, but there is a FAQ for the Usenet Newsgroup comp.sys.hp.hpux which I think should/could be used instead:
(There should also be an HTML version of the FAQ (see 4.1.1 in the FAQ), but that URL (<http://faqs.org/faqs/hp/hpux-faq/>) seems to be dead at the moment.)
This etiquette document makes it socially unacceptable to just post a message without consulting the guide which is very large. I don't think this is right as some people only use the forums on a rare basis when they have an urgent and serious problem or concern. Such rules could make non-regular users more reluctant to post topics.
I suggest that these rules for socially acceptable behaviour be renamed "Guidelines for the use of the Forums" which should not take away from their value which I do appreciate.
Most of the replies to this topic are from regular users, who don't necessarily represent the 500,000+ peers the forums are intended for.
Personally I would be discouraged to use the forums if such rules were introduced.
Thanks for your valuable service. If you have no objections, I plan to use the attached text file to alert people to your article, specifically the section re: points.
No offense intended here, but other people have done what you are proposing to do without much success.
From what I have seen, if people are going to assign points, then they will do so without be prompted. Those who don't assign points generally will not do it even if you prompt them.
Another thing that can get bothersome is if you are overzealous in reminding people to assign points, it can clutter up the list of questions so that it is difficult to tell a question you responded to about the points from another that has a technical response.
There is no solution to get people to assign points and I do NOT wish to start another debate about possible solutions to this issue. There have been numerous threads on that issue already and we don't need another.
While the lack of assigning points by some folks is annoying, you just have to realize that there isn't much you can do about it.
My etiquette guide is not a document that was intended to be the "Official ITRC Forums Rulebook". I doubt that I could do that anyway since I am not even employed by HP. My document is just intended to be a general guide on what I feel appropriate Forums behavior should be. If someone doesn't agree with me, or doesn't follow it, there's not a whole lot I can do about it.
My friendly advice to you is don't do what you are thinking of doing. Let it go and admire those that actually do take the time to assign points.
Nice work. The only thing I don't see is penalties for violators and an activity profile that would identify violators. Maybe just some friendly etiquette reminder if someone revisits the forum and has some pending point assignments.
On the subject of points...some people seem to take these far too seriously, surely it's just a bit of fun? Whereas I'm more than happy to dish out points when someone helps me, it does annoy me when people post quick incorrect answers in an attempt to pick up points before anyone else can get them. It wouldn't take long to test out your solutions first.
As I said, I do NOT work for HP, so there is not much that I can do about reminders and penalties for violators. I'm not sure that I agree with that concept anyway.
This forum is about the FREE SHARING of knowledge. The point system is NOT mandatory, it is voluntary. There is just not much we can do about someone that chooses not to assign points to the responses to their questions.
This is the first time I have been over to the thread to check it out. Nice work.
There has to be some way to fully re-itterate the fact that the forums are not for gaining points. The sole reason is for each of us to help each other when we need it. If it a large portion of responders start trying to just focus on the points rather than giving help, the value of the forums will degrade terribly. I can not quantify how the forums have helped me out since I have been spending time here, but I am grateful for what I've gotten out of it. At the risk of getting some people riled up, it kind of ticks me off when a post is made and someone responds by simply pointing out that the person fails to assign points. Someone please slap me if I ever do it.
First of all, great work Patrick. Its just a pity you had to do it in the first place!
Surely the points system is of most benefit to the inexperienced user or to those who are new to the forum, the very people who normally abuse it? I'm sure when HP decided on this system it was to recognise technical proficiency, provide order to the forum and achieve a degree of trust in those answering the questions....and also a system whereby the same question would not have to be repeated as the correct answer could be easily identified through a search?
Imagine going onto another section in this very forum where you are not technically proficient....whose answer do you trust if there was no points system? Especially considering that in most cases this answer could affect the business that you are supporting.
Basically it is a question of personal and professional courtesy to assign points or thank someone who has helped, especially if it is obvious a lot of work/research has gone in it? Yeah, the guy (or girl!) who answered may get a new hat but he won't get the recognition at work or a pay rise for fixing the problem!
Its good to see everyone still answering questions to those who obviously don't assign points or say thanks for the help though.
ITRC should be for helping people, not the points.
A look back at my responses, shows many good ones, with thank you posts after and nary a point awarded.
The bottom line is if people are successful with HP servers then that will strengthen the platform. That's good for us folks that make their living off HP-UX.
I think the forms ettiquette is correct however. It is good forms ettiquette to reward points for good answers. It certainly boosts my ego when I get them.
I could easily participate in Oracle forums or newsgroups and I choose to be here. That says a lot about the community.
For what its worth I (in voyeur mode) use the points system to determine whether a solution has been posted, and that the solution works.
While I scan the postings I look at the magic wabbit ones first!
I'm in a non-technical assignment at the moment, and this forum has proved invaluble in keeping up to date.
I???m glad you bounced this. I guess this is the first time I have been introduced to this thread even though I???m fairly sure that Pete has introduced me to the document in the past ;-)
I like most of what I see on you guide, but I have to agree with the post from Michael T. on April 20, 2002 regarding the congrats to each hat level obtained, not just the wizards and above. Being relatively new to the forums myself, I know the personal satisfaction I got when I saw that fist hat next to my name and I will never forget the thrill of seeing a congrats post with my name on it. It???s one of the reasons I???m still here.
You make many good points in your guide and there are many more good thoughts shared in this thread. Thank you for being bold enough to share the entire thread with us instead of simply starting a new one with the link each time. It shows that you have not only the backbone to write such a document, but to stand up to the critics of it as well.
While I many not live up to each point of the document, I already try to keep with the spirit of it. Hope you can understand that I am simply human and, like you, I have my own thoughts and ideas on what is right and wrong and I choose to go with what makes me the most comfortable in the long run. After all, when I look in the mirror, I don???t see you or Pete or Wodisch. I see myself and I am ultimately the only person that I have to answer to and live with. {Just don???t tell my wife I said that, huh??}
I tip my hat to you on a job well done. Nice work!
I think it's time to (re)read Patrick's guidelines.
Sadly, for the first time in the life of this Forum I have seen a series of self-congratulatory threads appear during the last month. In one case, an otherwise talented poster offered 10-points for the pat-on-the-back. I'm not sure what's worse; the appearance of such a thread, or the number of members that came to collect the bounty.
Yep, I hear you.
Those posts don't thrill me either. Makes us look like point-whores, if you ask me.
I was able to successfully fight off the urge to reply to the most recent.
Thanks for the reminder & don't stop being the conscience for the forum.
I too have noticed the self congratulatory posts lately. I have only been a member of the forum for a relatively short period and had never seen this before.
I think one reason people may possibly be doing this is becuase of others not taking notice when they change ranks. for example - I did get a congrats thread when I attained graduate status.... but when I received my first hat no one put a post out there for me <sniff> . I think (especially for the higher ranks) that a real sense of accomplishment is felt and not seeing a thread pop up quickly can diminish that feeling if it's not recognized.
As for the number of points rewarded.... I can't say why they deemed such a high value to it.... probably wanted to make it obvious that they were "overlooked"(?) but that's just a guess.
I too congratulated them (but not for the points) I know how hard it is to reach for another hat. It feels awesome when you finially get it.
Regarding: "... the number of members that came to collect the bounty...."
Surely you're not suggesting that my congratulatory thread is payment for 'more' congrats? Post more congrats get more points?
Since most of us are not centrally located in one physical location how do you suggest a forum member celebrate achieving a difficult accomplishment with the other people he/she visits with daily from around the world locations? Get together in London?
The awarding of points for non-technical issues is certainly not a precedent recently started. And the awarding of points is purely subjective: Each user has his / her own guidelines that he /she follows as we have all discovered when points go unrewarded for posting correct answers.
I, too, have found the recent self-congratulatory threads a bit annoying.
Even more annoying was the recent thread where the poster was happy he/she got their first 10 point answer.
In my most humble opinion, if you are in it just for the points, then you're doing this for all the wrong reasons. This forum is, and should always be, about helping people.
Yes the hats and recognition are nice, and yes I would love to get the Olympian hat, BUT that is not why I do this. The Olympian hat is not my end goal. The end goal is to help folks as best I can.
A quick comment on congratulatory threads in general and peoples promotion being missed -- It is much more difficult now to keep track of everyone. 18-24 months ago, you could keep an eye on the top 25 list and pretty well keep up with promotions. With the number of people participating now, it is so much more difficult. Promotions will inevitably get missed. Merijn's do help greatly with this though.
I still stand by my original recommendation to only start congratulatory threads for Wizard status and above. Otherwise we could be overrun with congrats threads.
OK, I'll get off the soapbox now. I could go on and on with this topic, but I'll save the rest for another day! ;)
I am one of them as well.
When I got my hat No one open a post for me neither did I. I just have to congratulate my self. And even if ou open don't have to assign 10 to each.
Steele, Did you read what yogi says in his reply to your thread?
You have to be better assigning point when you are in royal club.
Patrick,
Correctly said. For the last 1 and half years I was just a watcher of the forums, continued learning from all the posts. Many many threads go unnoticed by me because of the sheer volume. Many of the users are one time or just get into to find a quick solution for their problems/quetions instead of taking the pain of going through docs, man pages etc.
It immensely gives a satisfaction when you are in a position to help/solve other people problems rather than getting the points. But points also give you a sense of achievement.
Regarding: "...Steele, Did you read what yogi says in his reply to your thread?
You have to be better assigning point when you are in royal club...."
Yes, this comment has been stated more than once by more than one forum member in more than one posting to numerous forum members.
Clearly, most are very ???point awarding aware??? and are hurt when points go unrewarded for the effort that they've put forth, right or wrong. Which, makes my congratulatory thread all the more pertinent and relevant since I am acknowledging the work effort of other forum member and all of those unrewarded efforts for unrewarded postings.
Hmm, being addressed to directly, I cannot withhold comments.
IIRC I did not post to the 100 pts congrat, nor to the second 10 pnt self-congrat. The other was fun because he was for my recollection the first ever to have an avarage of 10.0, so I could not resist.
Maybe the Etiquette could also mention that the poster (thread initiator) of a congrat thread should be keeping track of point-collectors. Paula is not one of those, but she got 40 points! because of - probably - a ITRC glitch.
At current time, I must admit I get a fair amount of points out of the congrat threads, but I don't think that (in my case) that is unfair :}
With some people learning fast (Robin, Ramkumar) from my posts, I often have no reason anymore to answer myself, and it is flattering to see my ITRC site links being refered to by many but myself. I don't get any points for that. Mostly the posters do.
The chance that promotees are overseen is very unlikely now that Volkmar and Pete are adicted to the stats (and soon Ramkumar to follow :P)
I don't care that Pro's get there own thread, esp if they have earned their first 250 points in one single week.
I'm also very opposed to self-congrat threads, or threads that use different bounds (100, a double crown, ...)
I think I've earned my respect here. I'm not thriving for more. I'm aiming at even more fun and learning.
Merijn (let me say it once again - i liked procura better) - Is there an action item here for me and Pete and Volkmar?
Man, it was a great feeling to become Pro, and i guess i did Grad from Pro in a week and it went unnoticed. So, I like to maintain the decorum out here and so, I just let the guy/girl/person (name's OV4ME) who gave me my 500th point know of it. and that did it. No congratulatory thread, nothing. Got local appreciation at work.
As Pete said, I stand guilty as charged - but definitely I wouldn't like my stats to be adversely bolstered by congrats thread points - that i would not be proud of myself. but in the course of congratulating if some points are awarded, i have no way of correcting this can I?
Let's all enjoy ourselves - the forums is a great wonderful place for customer interaction and I consider myself lucky to be a part of it.
Again to quote somebody else - 'JRF, never stop being the conscience of the forum.' We are all learning from you.
Personally I think is is free for *anyone* to start a congrat (marally not for oneself though). Which could imply that the three of you *wait* to start a congrat for at least half a day to give anyone else a chance. OTOH when *you* start it, at least the rest of us know there will be `fair' point awarding in these threads.
You lot can use my list of Almost as a guide to see if someone is passing one of the imaginary lines and earns an imaginary cap and start a thread.
To my knowledge most of the congratulees are very pleased with these threads (some don't answer though :/)
Enjoy, have FUN! H.Merijn
H.Merijn is my name, PROCURA is the name of the company I work for.
Since I have no chance of being labeled a point hunter by posting to this thread (unlike others, it would appear), I think it???s safe to interject at this point.
I have nothing against having the three people being mentioned (Ramd, Pete, and Volkmar) being something like the promotion watchdogs to assure that nobody goes without their congrats for making it to the next level, but surely we aren???t suggesting that nobody else should start one are we? How on earth would that be enforced?
I would also like to add that I am somewhat resentful of being labeled a point hunter (or even worse, a point whore) for responding to anybody???s thread for whatever reason it is posted.
I can???t say that I???m for people starting their own congrats threads for nonstandard achievements, but I can also see this from a different standpoint. These people are proud of their individual achievements and they want others to know that. Are you seeing these types of threads started from the ???veterans??? of the forum? No. You are seeing it from the new blood that is coming into the forums. For any forum like this to survive, you have to have new blood on a regular basis.
The problem with new blood is that they don???t always know all of the ???accepted norms??? that the veterans have come to think of as rules. Most of them aren???t likely to be trying to ???buck the system???, it is more likely that they just haven???t been formally introduced to the ???standards??? yet. How could we expect someone who has received their first 10 points to know all of the ropes? Can we fault the person that is proud of breaking the 100 point mark for being proud? Where else will they get a reaction from someone that will understand what it means to make it to this level? Surely you don???t think that they will get recognition from blood family or friends for this, do you? This only leaves their ???forum family??? and their ???forum friends???.
Give them time and be patient with them. Gently guide them to behaviors that you, the veterans, would prefer they try to follow. Most of them will most likely adopt the old ways and go with them if they choose to stay here and become a regular contributor. If we chastise them for being proud of their achievements, then we can almost certainly guarantee that they will cease to contribute and leave this forum. I may be wrong, but I don???t think that anybody here wants that to be the end result???
As for me, I choose to follow the same thoughts presented to me by someone else that could be considered a forum veteran (and I quote) ???I think it's a good thing that we have some guidelines but have to admit that I don't always follow them??????, but I do my best MOST of the time.
It's unfortunate that newbies don't go through some sort of orientation around here, but the fact is that many of them have never taken the time to read etiquette documents or "Please assign points" threads. They just launch into it. It's up to all of us to help guide them, and to do so without driving them away (in other words, make sure you've had your coffee first).
1. It does not matter who starts the congratulatory thread.
2. It is a question of checking the forumer's score and see if he/she's reached any of the milestones (>= wizard).
So, why not have a system generated congratulatory thread as and when somebody reaches any of these milestone? Let the system assign as suggested 1 point or any point agreed upon.
That will bring some objectivity to the entire thing and let's the watchdog watch the real tech stuff too. No doubt it'd be a bit of a rigour but still that way nobody will be forgotten.
I think it appropriate to respond to some of the comments generated by my addition to this thread, yesterday.
To Michael Steele, I have to say I stand by my remarks. I find public self-congratulations tasteless and I feel that they have no place here. You will note, if you reread my comments, that I referred to you as "an otherwise talented poster". I???m sure others have noticed your efforts and a congratulatory thread would have been offered in short order. In answer to your question of whether or not I felt, the "bounty" was offered to collect more congratulations; no, that was not my feeling. Without dragging through the subject of "points", their purpose and their value, I feel that your use of them devalued what many of us have been striving to achieve.
Merijn???s comments offer the insight on congratulations that sum it all up. He notes, "I think I've earned my respect here. I'm not thriving for more. I'm aiming at even more fun and learning". The lesson is, contribute well and you will be well noticed and honored.
John Collier, you are correct, too. The community does indeed welcome "new blood", as you would call it. I would simply add that every community has a culture, and attempting to understand it upon entering it shows maturity and respect. To proceed otherwise is reckless and undignified. Patrick???s guideline is an attempt to show the way for the very situation you describe.
Ramkumar, your suggestion of system-generated congratulations is interesting. In the beginning days of the Forum one would get a congratulatory email from HP as one put on a new hat. I think Merijn does a far more personal service with his statistics, which are often added to human-generated congratulatory threads.
John Poff, you didn???t comment in this thread, but did speak in another. You spoke of "the high and mighty members of the forum". That???s not the way I think of myself, if that was directed at me. As an old "veteran" here, I just want to see the best, most professional, most successful community we can mold. Your own contributions have been most valuable and thoughtful. As Jeff Schussele, noted, my purpose is, and was, to heighten our collective conscience.
if there is anyone in Grenoble,France or in Dublin,Ireland who wants to reward me, I would much rather a pint than the points!
seriously guys. there is life after the forums.
Bill "O'Callaghans,Grenoble from 9 O'Clock every Friday" McNAMARA
Don't get me wrong here - i was not by any means decrying the human touch that Merijn brings in.
>>
Ramkumar, your suggestion of system-generated congratulations is interesting. In the beginning days of the Forum one would get a congratulatory email from HP as one put on a new hat. I think Merijn does a far more personal service with his statistics, which are often added to human-generated congratulatory threads.
<<
If not for procura's weekly statistics wednesday evenings would not be as interesting for me as they are nowadays.
RAMD: intersting idea, on the auto-generate for congrat posts. Nothing about that would prevent Merijn from posting stats or a graph (those are an excellent addition, Merijn, by the way).
One problem (sort of) is that the forum SW doesn't seem to add up points the same way that Merijn does. I'm only aware of the occasional several day mismatch between Procura's stats and the HP tally, not the reasons behind it all, but it has occasionally resulted in a congrat thread that is a day or so early, from HP's point of view (points of few?)
Anyway, there is also one minor reason to have congrat threads started by someone other than the congratulatee... traditonally, the subject of the post gets 10 points for their contribution, with all others much less (1 or 3 or so). It seems like a harmless and excellent way to point out who is being honored, and to highlight their contribution... a neat self-referential way of acknowledging all their contributions, in one deft pass.
Anyway, I always thought it was subtle yet effusive, as praise goes. Of course, it can't be done for self-posters.
Best Regards, and don't forget, we have the best forum, warts and all.
I see nothing wrong with the congratulations posts at all. Does it matter who starts them ?
I too am guilty of getting a "bounty" BUT, my intention was to congratulate a new royal who has made a valuable contribution to this forum community.
I've said this before and I'll say it again. These are the comments I made a year ago and I stick by them.
"Having congratulary posts is a great idea for *all* new hat levels attained. It encourages these new guys to hang around a bit longer. The point system, 1 point for each person responding and 10 points for the person being congratulated.
Just one thing we should all remember. If we have too many rules, people maybe will be put off to a point where they may not post a question at all, thinking "oh that's
too hard" and either go elsewhere, or just call the response centre. The idea of having this forum in my opinion is to share the knowledge of others and help people who post questions gain a solution. Getting the points is the reward...."
"Just remember that *you* choose to be here, you are not forced to be" The forums ettiqutte is a guideline not an official rule ... and it is not signed in blood.
Regards
Michael (believing everybody is entitled to an opinion, whether it is good, bad or ugly!)
JRF is not in question here. It does not matter what JRF does. If he wants to post to 0 congrats he has the right to do so. And that does not make him any less of a man then the person who posts to every congrats post that comes up. Mr. James has just simply stated his opinion to what is going on. It doesn???t make it right or wrong it is just one person ???s point of view. I did not take his comments as being ???tight??? but as a man that has high standards and pride in his work. As a royal you should act then tell someone something with your big 84 of 150.
I've had some time to reflect on the remarks about the self-congratulatory threads.
I'd like to make two points. First, the comments by John Collier about this subject were excellent and I agree with them. Second,
I am offended by the remarks about "members that came to collect the bounty".
James Ferguson, I truly repect your knowledge and the contributions you have made to this forum, but I am offended at the suggestion
that I posted to Michael Steele's post merely to collect the points. I agree with Pete Randall. We were merely congratulating him on
earning his crown. The fact that he decided to congratulate himself can be debated, but it doesn't bother me quite as much as it seems to bother others. If someone wants to start a post to pat themselves on the back, and I think they deserve it, then I will respond to them, points or no points. I would prefer to encourage participation rather than discourage it. If you had a problem with the gentleman's post, I think you should have responded directly to the post and said so.
I did make a remark in another post about the 'high and mighty'. If I have offended you with that remark, then please accept my apologies. The tone of the posts about the issue did seem to be an admonishment from the veteran members to say, "We don't like this." I understand your point, but your post left the impression of scolding members who responded to the thread.
As I have stated before, the only two goals I have here are; 1) to help people, and 2) to learn something. The points REALLY, REALLY, REALLY, don't matter to me. The suggestion that I responded to Mr. Steele's post just for the points is frustrating and disappointing.
I agree with JP:
"..As I have stated before, the only two goals I have here are; 1) to help people, and 2) to learn something. The points REALLY, REALLY, REALLY, don't matter to me. The suggestion that I responded to Mr. Steele's post just for the points is frustrating and disappointing."
After being off the forums for quite a while, I am amazed about the vigor of the discussion going on here, really.
There is a point (no pun intended) in having rules and sticking to those, but there is another one in those joining the forums later to experience the same level of freedom we "veterans" (and "veteranesses"?) had in our time (i.e. before those rules where tossed around).
Personally I seem to remember having got my "hard hat thread" started actually *before* I received it - and nobody complained (nor did I)...
John's opinion about congratulation on/about every hat/bulb is something I second (and did so about one year earlier in this very thread, IIRC). But *then* the rules where not as iron as they seem to be today, so let's all calm down a little, celebrate every single person, who made the transition from "asking" to "answering" and, maybe, have the forum's database start that thread automagically (Dan, would a notification eMail to the congratulee be possible, telling him/her the URL?).
Of course that will never be as personal as a thread started by a living person, but it would be *fair*, kind of, wouldn't it? (BTW, has somebody actually seen Pete in real life? Or is he the ITRC's version of "Eliza"?)
Just my $0.000000002,
Wodisch
@John: why can't you see me when looking into your mirror? Is it broken? *SCNR*
From one who feels your pain, and shares your feelings, on this issue to another I say, ???No apologies needed???.
It???s time for me to say to you what you (and others) said to me: Well said.
I, also, drop this particular chapter of this subject at this time (but, being a human (fe)male, I reserve the right to pick it back up again if I so see fit).
Many people are here for the points, and that is the challenge to them. It's not such a bad thing most of the time, but in the past I have seen the point greed lead to the following.
* Plagurizing from within a thread (obvious when JonDoe1 replies at 18:01 feb 2 "try rm ./-abc" and Tom replies at 13:00 feb 4 "try rm ./-abc".)
* Making the question a chat page instead of answering. (hey, I had that problem before too... end of post ; or Hi bob, long time no see...end of post).
* BAD Answers ( I saw someone tell a person to cange maxdsiz to 6GB when the person had 2GB of RAM. I posted a warning not to make a change, but the person did and already had a 2nd post that his system would not boot with a kernel panic)
* Complaints about points (these have been much better over the past 3-4 months)
I too like to see 10 points next to my name, but in all honesty it is more to ME to teach someone something than to get a point.
We come back to the same issues over and over. Some love points, others dont. Both have interests in being here, even if slightly varied the same end goal is accomplished. I think it's a hard balance act to please both sides.
When someone does something I feel is wrong, I have no issues with letting them know it. I try to be as direct as I can, and try not to be insulting to the person, but rather the action(s).
It may help if there was a personal message box for each user, then we can b**tch each other out without anyone seeing it publicly ;)
I'd also like to see a "close thread" box on the threads. This would allow people to catch mistakes in judgement and stop the expansion of such.
Since we dont have these things, lets try not to beat each other up unless we do things really really bad. When that happens, nudge the offender in the direction you think they should go, and just like teaching someone how to fix an NIS problem, teach them why it is better to take a different route in posting.
I think that cut and paste copying for points is a bad idea. When I add something to a thread with a rabbit, I try and make sure there is added value.
I have seen during the current hideous performance environment seen similar solutions to what I've posted show up ahead of mine because of the luck of the bandwidth or whatever motivates HP's sql database.
I blew a post today on Glance for Linux. I was wrong and posted right back when I figured that out.
Occaisionally eager posters are going to post something that's dangerous like the example Shannon posted. Its up to the vetrans to point this out quickly.
I'd rather have more voices than have poeple afraid to post.
Beware posters, you CAN lead someone astray and cause them problems. I've seen at least three persons recommend reinstallation of PHKL_18543 which is a HUGE mistake. It took me months to recover from that which was NOT inspired by a bad itrc post.
Here's what I'm in it for. I want 10 points and the question author to say Thanks Steve, you hit the nail on the head, helped me solve my problem. That's a lofty goal, but I'll keep working even if I never get there.
Good luck.
http://www.isnamerica.com
Call me anything you want, just don't forget to call me to dinner.
Steven E. Protter
Shannon,
Speaking of plagurizing, you stole some of the comments I had made in earlier "Show me the Points!" threads.
Just kidding. It means we share some of the same ideas and concerns.
It has always annoyed me when people keep posting answers that are already in the thread. I see a couple of possibilities though. It could be the points mongers trying to get a piece. Or, they just did not take the time to read the entire thread. They read the question, hit Reply and just add more clutter to the thread. Many times there are posts that are minutes or seconds apart. Those are obviously just overlaps. I've seen answers posted more than a year after the question was first posed. Asked and answered. Closed case. Problem solved. Move on.
I too would like to see a closed thread option. When I have my answer I probably am not going to come back to the question again. If some one later on posts another answer it messes up my assigned points stats which opens me up to ridicule for not assiging points to an answer I didn't know was posted. Catch 22. The author should be able to close the thread to new posts.
"* Making the question a chat page instead of answering."
I'll say it one more time. Dan, how about a chat forum where points are not expected or even allowed? That would be a good place for the congratulatory, World Cup and who wants to have a drink at HP World type threads.
"* BAD Answers"
It's going to happen. People make mistakes or misunderstand the question. Please do not give 10 points to something that did not solve the problem. I've seen that many times. You see a thread with a magic rabit but, can not really tell which answer solved the problem.
"* Complaints about points (these have been much better over the past 3-4 months)"
It's a fact of life in this forum. There are people who do not care about the points (I've hated the system from the beginning) and those who live for the points. And many variations in between. It's the imperfect forum we have and we should get over it.
Sorry I'm coming in on the tail end of this. I didn't see it until this morning. I saw Shannon hit many of the points that have bothered me with the system and I wanted to put my slant on them. I'll go back to work now.
There is a another phenomenon, caused by itrc itself.
I click sysadmin
I see a question I think I can answer(based on the subject). It comes up and amazingly its an easy one and JRF, A Clay, Harry or Pete Randall haven't posted an answer.
I consult my trusty cheat sheet(which includes A Clay's and Pete's greatest hits among many others), run a search or whatever, compose something that resembles English and hit submit.
I click sysadmin and am amazed to see six posts on the question.
There is Pete first, A. Clay second and JRF right there as well.
Well, when I started it was a clean question.
I got 10 points today on a screw up. There was a question on maxuprc and I checked an 11.00 system and forgot to check an 11.11 one. I didn't deserve the points, but that make for for at least 10 other perfectly good answers that got n/a. Two days ago, I got one of my own n/a posts while trying to solve a problem in my own shop.
Look, there are personalities here, and I'm quite certain I'm one of the more annoying ones. I respect you folks and hope you have more respect for me than I have for myself.
It's fine to disagree. It's fine to point out that Steve Protter made a bad post today. So long as we do it in a way thats respectful to one and other.
One of my greatest fears, in spite of the fact that I know what I'm doing with HP-UX is that someone is going to reply in a thread I posted to and tell me I don't know what I'm doing.
Yeah, its a self esteem issue and doesn't belong in the forums, but thats the way things are.
You know what? In spite of a number of REALLY stupid posts over the past six months, my fear wasn't realized.
You folks are great and I love working with you. Thanks for being you.
I finally waded through the document and all of the posts. I think it approproriate to express preferred etiquette.
I usually look only at the Openview forum. (wodisch is my god, but drew dimmick is becoming my guru)
I have no hats, and only contribute if I have something that might help. I do get turned off by people awarding 10 points for a congratulations -- I, too, perceive it as veterans giving other veterns points. However, I see the practice of acknowledging good performance as valuable and would not want it changed from the way it is.
I agree with much of what John Collier and Wodisch said in their recent posts urging tolerance and few rules. I found it especially easy to join and participate in the forum. I wouldn't have joined if I had to jump through a bunch of hoops to get started. Not many hatless people voiced their responses to this thread. Perhaps they agred with everything, or were merely a little intimidated by the preponderance of royalty that expressed furstration dealing with the "non-experienced"
My perspective on old postings is different than the responses I have seen here. I often find old problems reappear in new form or were not completely resolved in the old posting. If on one hand you want people to search old posts for solutions, but don't want the post resurrected, how can the reader truly know if the old solution still applies to their situation.
I dislike seeing links to older messages as answers to questions. I would rather see the solution posted so I can decide whether it applies to my environment.
I primarily use the Forum to learn about problems others experience because sometimes I encounter them later, or they are minor annoyances that I haven't had time to address. I have successfully avoided many issues by reading the experience of others.
In summary, try to avoid lots of rules for this forum, they hamper the free exchhange of ideas and opinions.
Pete Randall - I found your post refreshingly honest - It should not matter why someone is here... wheather it is to help or just go give yourself a goal and get a hat. The point (not pun intended) is that the person is adding value. This can especially be said of anyone "higher up" because I guarantee that they didn't get where they were from congratulation threads. To get that far you either have to be around a while - and - answer a LOT of questions. The infamous "10 point congratulatory thread" isn't going to do anything for most ranks.... but for someone just starting out... trying for that first hat... wohoo paydirt (I guess?)
I'm not saying that this is how "I" feel... I'm here to help and to learn... but getting a hat as recognition for the help you've provided is nice... It's proven that humans need acceptance - congratulatory threads are important - yes people need to understand and participate in forum etiquite... but just post to that person and say "hey... good initiative... bad judgement" let them know and be a big brother/sister to them.
I read through this entire forum today (again)... and I just want to note all the time and energy (myself included) that's been basically wasted bickering about it - instead of actually participating in the questions that this forum is all about... people's problems.... so let's all get back to those
When I post to a congratulation thread I post there because they want or need to have that thread... to let them feel important.... when I recieved my first hat I didn't receive a thread... and it felt like no one noticed me or didn't care :( I did get one for this hat - which made me feel really good about my contributions. It keeps people interested and it allows us to increase the value of the forum although not in a technical way.
....And pigs can fly....so to speak. I'm one that honestly doesn't care. I'm with Patrick...the *goal* is .edu!!
I get points solely on volume. I answer a lot - ergo I get points. i *try* not to give crap answers, but they've happened & it's highly likely it'll happen again. But, I keep plugging. I *try*. My fellow forumers will definitively correct me when I'm wrong. But on the whole I add value here, I'd hope.
It's only been a month and 1/2 since this was bumped but I thought I'd jump this up to the top on my way out (I'm back in ProjectLand Monday). I've been a member of the forum for a couple years but only participating for the past couple weeks. This document is great, unfortunately I wonder if the regulars are the only ones reading it. It would be good if this was required reading when creating a forum account.
There was one comment above about not posting links. I think posting a link is a reminder to some that if you use the Search feature you can find your answer.
As far as points go, it's fun to watch them go up but a meaningful "Thank You" means more to me.
I think the Congratulations threads should be 0 or 1 points, not because I have any problem with giving points but because THEN you will find out who really cares.
The biggest thing though in my mind is the number of posts that come in well after the first burst, and the answers look eerily familiar to the ones above them. I'm not talking minutes, but hours and days later.
I think we can all benefit by adding this document to our signature once in a while, especially with new users.
Sort of a softer, gentler way to remind folks to assign points and do an itrc search before posting a question.
Will it help? If all regulars use this doc in our signatures, my bet is duplicate questions will fall and point assignment rates, currently at 55% will rise.
As a further reminder, here's an extract from an earlier response on this thread from Michael Tully (Apr 20th 2002);
>>If a number of people reply to the question
>>within a few minutes of each other should
>>be awarded the same amount of points. The
>>habit of someone replying with the same
>>answer one hour later with the same
>>response should not get any points.
We seem to be getting a number of these kind of responses of late (especially after the person asking the question has confirmed that the solution has worked).
I'm sure that most people will agree that this is more than a little annoying, and I know that there are a good many of us out there that will only post to a "closed" thread if we have something extra to add to the topic.
Chris
To learn without thinking is labour in vain.
To think without learning is desolation.
Every contribution should be looked upon as enhancement to the problem or extra engineering to the solution. So pony up, ante up and throw your hat into the game. Maybe you'll be making a contribution, maybe you won't.
Its for the author to decide.
For there is no other forum designations or distinctions other than your point accumulation totals.
And a responder has no other 'expressed' relationship with any other forum member other than with the author of a posting.
The responder should be worried about the author only.
So factor in the world wide audience and vastly different time zones, as well as those moments when you have to leave an author dangling and you'll see that there are numerous explanations for all of the above.
The ITRC User Forum: A Shifting (* especially since the upgrade *) Zone in which time is greatly speeded up.
Once again I think it is useful to pop this thread to the top.
There are very much new participants and less 'bunnnies' here.
Points are an indicator how good an answer solved a problem. And a 'bunny' also shows if a thread is closed.
Most times it 'only' takes two tries to give points, so please use this useful part of ITRC to show other people who search for a solution that an answer has solved a problem.
And it's also an incitation for the people who help.
One the other side there are more and more threads where the same solution is given hours later.
I think it makes no sense to give the same answer without more explanations.
Except that of course are simultaneous answers.
I have read "etiquette" and it appeals to me. It is very interesting and is a Good job... This is my idea... I think that the allocation of the points is a way in order to reward the efforts of who tries to give an help. The thing more important is to find a solution to the problem, but the system of the points incite all to strain itself always more.
Naturally the assignment of the points must happen with equity criteria
Personally I give at least 1 point (also to answers that don't resolve) because think that is a gratefulness for who has lost the time for to help other people (only answer not relative to solve the problem i give 0 points).
According to me, only an answer can have the maximum score 10 points, other answers the max 9 points.
Moreover I think that the question must be close (stop at the possibility of other answers) when:
1) the problem has been resolved
2) or the question is much old one
3) or when the author of the question want.
(I have write this to Dan)
"Dan,I think that is useful the possibility for owner of question to close the forum (clicking on new button close). The question closed, can to be recognized by padlock icon (or other symbol). This avoids to display, in the first positions, question very old or definitively solved. Also avoids answer to question obsolete."
I agree, when a problem is resolved, the author of the question would have to close the forum specifying the method used for the solution. In fact this explanation helps other users with the same problem.
The guidelines are excellent. Specific, to the point, and helpful. I'm a rookie and already made the mistake of hitting new msg instead of reply when adding info to my first question. I wish I had read this before hand.
I am bouncing this to the top again because I feel there have been a few instances recently where folks have forgotten one of the primary "issues" with a forum like this.
To quote from the document:
"When posting to the ITRC Forums....please keep in mind that there is no way, yet, for us to be able to read facial expressions, tone of voice, body language, etc. So if you post something, make sure that it can be plainly understood in the manner intended (sarcasm, joke, etc.)."
What may obviously be a joke to the person posting, may be taken just the opposite way by someone reading the post.
Try to keep this in mind when posting.
To steal a line from Merijn, everyone needs to remember to "HAVE FUN"!!!!!!!!!!!!
I have been using the forum for some time now, and find it to be an amazing asset to my t-shooting arsenal. Today is the first time I noticed this link to your doc, and I have to say, this doc on Forum Etiquette is EXCELLENT! Thanks for taking the time to write this! My only wish now...that HP would accept this doc and include it as a formal set of guidelines for everyone to read before becoming a forum user.
N/A I am quite new to this forum and was introduced by another member of this forum, I find it very strange that some people add to the bottom of their replies that points are appreciated, I am not in here to accur points but to share my knowledge with others, I already work for HP as a contractor and find some of the questions quite limiting and some older posts have not been answered. I have tried my best to always answer fairly.
Michael, the assignment of points is an important part of the forumming. Ont the one hand the poster shows appreciation for the help given and also indicates what answer was of help and on the other it shows who is contributing to the forum on a persistant and good quality base. Too often someone opens a thread, people take time and answer but the thread owner does now show up anymore or says thank you and off he goes. Points are for free and if the forummers take time to answer, you could also take that moment and reward them. Is that to much asked for?
Please bear in mind, that to (probably) more than half of the participants English is NOT the native language! Sometimes that can mean intentions can get completely mistaken. I myself had an occasion where I was completely unaware of any open or hidden malintention, when I got flamed by one poster who concluded I had made him some unfair and unpleasant remarks. It took me some seeking over different languages to reconstruct how it could have come about, and then some more effort to explain my total un-intend of offence, which again lead to some embarrassment.
Bottom line: try to be as clear and explicit as possible, and try to take non-native English in consoderation.
Maybe this is only a pet peeve of mine, but, given that many of the members have a hard time with English, why make it even harder by introducing abbreviations, shortcuts, symbols and other "cute" chatroom stuff? Make your best effort to write comprehensible English, proof-read your efforts, then submit. Everyone will be grateful.
Personal viewpoint - as a matter of etiquette I don't think it's right to ask for points for yourself, but I have no objection to someone who hasn't contributed to a thread asking for points to be awarded.
I once used the term heck as a substitute for another word I don't use on the forums.
The author asked me what I meant.
Proof reading posts, also an excellent idea that I could do a better job on.
Points are great, but the satisfaction of a job well done is the real prize. Its a great feeling when someone says you helped save their system. A few smart users have saved their jobs by using the forums.
We're not getting the message through about language - I've just read a post from today written in telephone-text language. I'm a native English speaker and I find text language difficult, so how bad is it for people who speak English as a second language?
How about we halve the points we give to the offenders? E.g. a perfect answer written in English gets 10 points, a perfect answer written in telephone-text language gets 5 points.
Mark Syder (like the [old English] drink but spelt different)
- or maybe, only to those who according to there profile ARE native English speakers!
Your suggestion would discriminate heavily against those who have the hardest times 'concocting' something that tries to look like English. If I get your intentions correct, you are saying the contrary from my statement. Please accept that English can be quite hard for other-linguoed people, so please, be VERY forgiving towards imperfections! If anything, those with native languages that differ very much from English should be extra rewarded for their effort.
I personally know of one guy, who is doing ALL forums activity with Babelfish and a dictionary! As he admits himself, going to Englophone seminars is useless, because he can hardly follow anything, and talking to people in English is no option eighter.
So, stressing it once again: Try to be clear, accept mangling of English by others, and DO NOT take offence if the offensive-looking text can just as well be explained by unsufficient mastering of English!
I agree with Jan since, sometimes I've some difficulties writing posts and make me undertood but I can still help and be helped in the foruns perfectly. This post has certainly some bad English!
Speaking of etiquette, there are some users who need to read this thread because they have a lack of it:
Personaly, I assign points to all the answers I get. Even if the answer didn't help me at all, the user spent one portion of his time trying to help me so he deserves 1 or 2 points at least!!
I'm happy to accept imperfect English - English is complicated even for natives, and imperfections are inevitable. I fully agree that people who are not native English speakers should be rewarded for their efforts to use our language.
The people I want to give half points to are native English speakers who make themselves difficult to understand by using (for example) ur instead of your.
Season's greetings to you too - and everyone else.
Please see my answer to Jan - I'm not going to reduce someone's points because they don't speak English as a first language!
I appreciate your help - I seem to remember you gave me a 10-point answer to a "find" problem.
Eric, as a non-native English speaker I'm sure you'd understand the word "before", but would you understand "b4"? This is the kind of thing I'm saying has no place on the forum.
Ok, I didn't read all this huge thread so I may not understood everything about the Non-Native English subject.
I agree with you that "b4" is not understandable to most of the users, including me. As I said, if the answer doesn't help me, I'll assign 1 or 2 points just for the time spent buy the user. I'll do the same assigning principle if I don't understand that answer.
To me, the worst a user can do is not assigning points to the person that tried to help him...
to me it is equally bad if someone assigns zero points for a honest try to help just because it was not the right solution. This is an insult in my eyes.
Never attribute to malice what could be stupidity, clumsiness, or just plain accidental.
The points assignments is a drop-down is it not? If you still have input focus in there it is all too easy to attempt to scroll down the page while in fact scrolling through the points and then accidently commit it. I know I've done it (for other applications). Now, I grant you that it would be nice to call out an 'oops' at first opportunity (not worth a fresh reply, but if you are replying anyway...)
Also, I appreciate the sentiment of seeing 0 points as 'That was a lousy reply, why did you bother' versus 1 points perhaps being read as 'thanks for trying'. But you have to admit this is a subtle thing and wildly open to interpretation.
0 points, besides quite possibly being an accident, can be just a matter of style / approach. I remember a while ago that for a moment I was rather annoyed / baffled by a 1 or 2 points for an answer that went a long way to solving/helping understand a problem and. And even if it did not answer, it was clear to all I had made a serious effort to try to help. But then I looked around some and the person often gave 0, 1 or 2 points where others would quickly make that 5, 7 or even 10.
It all evens out in the long run. Sometimes you 'pick up' multiple 10 points for 2 line replies to a trivial problem, and sometimes a long answer with clear pre-work and testing get no points (bad etiquette), or gets 2 points because it is not the answer they want to hear even though it is correct.
I fully agree to your point with accidently assigning zero points. I have seen this once where the author in the next post said "I assigned 10 points" but he got zero. When pointed to it he was quite embarassed. I am talking about those who assign 0 points for several postings and obviously intentionally because he did not get what he expected. It feels like a slap in the face to me. :-( I also agree to your point that it levels. I got many times 8-10 points for trivial questions where I was just lucky to be the first. :-)
Dear ALL. Michael Schulte, it is very funny, isn't it? So how did you think about this situation? A bit curios, were you angry? :) I have been on this situation: When the author answer : "I have found the answer with you solution" and no point assigned. Then there was one man ask him that: "So that you please assign point for him" but no respond.....
yes, I quite agree....at lease, *0* point.... :) :)
About 0 points assignments : I did it. Yes. I confess... :) For me, reasons for assigning 0 point to an answer may be : . that the thread is non technical (like this one) . answer comes after some long time and the solution as already been found and points assigned. In other cases, I always assign at least 1 or 2 points, for the keyboard use :) I agree with the fact that someone saying he got the solution, but do not assign points is a bit frustrating. Sometimes, if I haven't been involved in the thread, I post to ask for point assignments, but it almost never works.
About language : I am not native english speaking (haven't you seen ?) but I do my best. Sometimes I don't understand people jokes or people flames. If I really need, I ask, and generally people explain. I personnaly try to be serious in forums, cause, even if my joke is understood, my culture may be different from others and good jokes here may be very bad jokes somewhere else. In case I can't help joking, I put a smiley (It's really hard sometimes to be too serious).
In England we have a saying: there's more than one way to skin a cat. This is an inelegant way of saying that a problem can have more than one solution. This brings me to two points of etiquette:
1. If someone has posted a solution you disagree with could you please disagree politely rather than aggressively?
2. Could you please let the question author decide which order to try suggestions in rather than insisting he try yours first?
No names, but anyone who's been following the forum for the last couple of days will probably know who has inspired this post.
Well done, Patrick. I was wondering if such a document existed. Only one minor "point": Your link to the ITRC Points System didn't work for me (possibly because I'm a "Euro"?)
Excellent document which clears up many issues. I think that our friends from HP should make a link to your etiquette guide from the Forums themselves - always available for reference, and quickly. Thanks much for the extra effort for all of us in the forums.
What a simple and yet wonderful idea, Simply wonderful ;)
Having scanned a good portion of the reactions to your article I'd like to take on the "noobie" roll and politely Point out a couple of thoughts that strike me.
On the use of language, grammer and the like. I have the disadvantage of having no excuse for my own failings in this matter besides often being on the phone, while having paper work shoved at me, while running behind on getting somewhere AS I try and help someone with a bit of advice. I can only imagine the challenge of doing this in anouther language as well. We should all keep in mind that it is the diversity of the memebers here that help give this forum the depth that it enjoys.
As for reviving old threads, I can certainly see where in certain areas that may be annoying or even counter productive, but in other areas (such as Printers), Having more than one way to approach an mechanical replacement, or a new method to verify or work around a known driver issue can not only be helpfull...it can at times be a job saver. If I go to a job site only prepared for one possiable mechanical issue and it turns out to be anouther part, it's anouther trip.
In regards to Points... The Printers section is often visited by consumers, who find themselves unsure if they have made the right choice, haveing arrived after googling an error code and the like. Points are fun, and certainly nice to get, However to expect them is folly. For me having anouther customer assured that they made the right choice when they picked HP is the true reward. On here points might eventually earn me a graphic, but the perception that a customer takes away after having a problem solved ...that will keep me in business. For that reason, I am opposed to forceing users to register an account here to ask a question, I'll sacrifice the points.
This is in no way intended to take away from all the effort and time memembers here have put into these forums, Indeed it's that work that took me from gleaning the site for information that would help me, to stepping up and trying to contribute.
I thank you all.
Good job Patrick, stop by the printers section some time and say hello.
OH yeah almost forgot, About links. Patricks example is a great one, if your going to use links, it should be done just as he did, with a simple explaination of what the (working) URL is.
The above URL links to a document that I have recently composed. It is an ITRC Forums Etiquette document with suggestions for acceptable ITRC Forums behavior.
If your still with me to this point I thank you also for the willingness to consider my thoughts.
I thought it would be a good idea to bump this up to the top. We've seen several threads recently congratulating people on reaching pro or graduate status. The generally accepted etiquette is only to start such a thread once a user reaches wizard status. Yes, I know I'm on thin ice, because someone started a thread for me when I reached graduate - but it's supposed to be the exception, not the rule.
Also, Patrick suggests 1 point for people who congratulate others on their achievements. Most people who start congratulations threads ignore this recommendation and give 3. Today I was given 7 points for saying congratulations to someone!
I know this thread is only guidelines and no one has done anything wrong - I just think it's worth reminding people what is expected.
Nice inititiative.:) Quite necessary too, I see a definite trend that allocation of points becomes more irratic. And that some don't respect the time other took to reply. I hope this will break the trend a bit. rgds
I think there are many reasons why new up and coming posters and users should read this thread and the web site associated with it.
I'm not particular pleased with certain posting trends I've notice of late.
Apologies on the congrats thing, I will now join other top members in bypassing such threads. Even though I started one (two, maybe three) once and was the recipient of one 9500 points ago.
You trying to kick the caffeine habbit, or was the coffee pot just broken?
On a more serious note, it is always a good idea to read over this thread on occasion. It helps us remember what is the accepted "norm" for the forums.
That being said, it is only an accepted policy. it is far from the law.
My thoughts have always been that if I do not like a thread, I will simply not respond to it unless it goes WAY out in left field. If it is that far out, it might get reported (thankfully, I have never had to go to that extreme!)
But then again, I have never been known for being that big of a grump on here before...
it's good to remind the etiquette of this forum for old and new ITRC users. I think this forum is great and different than other forums. It is useful to take up the etiquette, I also want to remind the great effort of Patrick to create it (thanks one more time Patrick!).
I think with contribution of all ITRC people partecipating on this forum we can do it better. I refer to give points and close threads. Sincerely I often use the forum to search for solutions and opinions about technical problems and it is good to see threads with assigned points and final comments in order to understand the solution about problems.
Hi Patrick, Iam new to the HP forum but before I started searching for a topic or posting a reply I made sure that I went through your etiquette section and it is really helpful.I think HP should make this document as a popup once any registered user signs in to the forum. Keep up the good work.
Hi Patrick - I cannot figure out how to send a message to a specific individual, so I happened to see this post from you.
I just wanted to tell you that you saved the day with your info in a post about recovering from a renamed dld.so file. I stumbled into this while trying to test a fix from HP and your post to use /sbin/mv was what I needed.
Thanks!
I still have to ask HP why they did not warn me about working with dld.so.
Looks great, I am usually an asker more than an answerer. I usually follow everything you pointed out.... sometimes a fire breaks out and my question takes a back seat. But I will try and take time to make a note that my response will be delayed next time.....
It would seem that posts can be made to this thread (current total 196 - this should be 197) even though these current posts can not be seen. When displaying the thread, the entries cut off at May 3, 2003.
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